Question about Original Sin (Christian only plz)?

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My question is geared to Christians in particular, since I am basing my question on Christian terminology and events, like Original Sin, Adam & Eve, etc and so forth.

As Christians, we've all heard the story in Genesis of Original Sin, God told Adam and Eve that they could eat fruit from any tree in Garden of Eden, except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan, in the form of the snake, tempted Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit, so she could be like God, knowing both good and evil. Eve fell into temptation, ate the fruit, and then gave Adam some to eat as well.

Then Adam and Eve realized they were naked, and God knew what was up, and He kicked them out of the Garden of Eden, which brought about a number of punishments: Man would have to work the ground or work to eat and live, women would suffer the pains of childbirth, they would be mortal, etc and so forth. Sin entered the world, and all men would be born in a state of sin and mortality.

Here's the big question- If you are a Christian, you acknowledge that all the diseases/mental disorders/physical abnormalities are a direct result of Adam and Eve's Original Sin. But WHY are some people paying for Adam and Eve's Sin more than others are?

What I mean is this- some people were born "normal" in the sense of having no mental or physical defects. Others were born with physical defects, like for instance scoliosis, cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis, quadriplegics, paraplegics, Down's Syndrome dwarfism, being blind, deaf, mute, or other physical conditions.

Others were born with mental disorders- autism, schizophrenia, manic depression, psychosis, bi-polar disorder, Tourette's disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and varying degrees of mental insanity.

Who made us? God made us! But tell me, why do you have an individual with high functioning autism, and then someone else who is completely neurotypical, without mental defect? Why do you have a 30 year old male in China with a 20 lb. tumor on his face who looks like something out of a horror movie or even hell, and you have another individual who has mild obsessive compulsive disorder, for example? Why did the Elephant Man, Joseph Merrick, exist, when almost everyone around him was completely normal in the late 1800's?

And I will go further- If we acknowledge that God is our Creator, as it says in the Bible, if people are created in this way, what reason, logically, should we trust Him (besides that rejecting Him = Hell for eternity)? Knowing that we were created differently from everyone else by Him- to be different from our neurotypical brethren, to deal with confusion, loneliness, isolation, and potential self-loathing?

Yes, I know about Jesus, God coming to Earth in the form of Jesus Christ, teaching men how to live according to God, and dying on the Cross to pay for all of mankind's sins- past, present, and future, if mankind believes in His sacrifice. I get the whole part about Jesus, and what He did.

But even though Jesus is God, in the sense of the Holy Trinity, I'm more talking about God the Father, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, even though He is Jesus.

I think of it this way- It is like you are starting a job on the first day, you meet your new boss for the first time, and he gives you a HUGE load of work and paperwork than the rest of your fellow employees. Then he has to do business on the other side of the world for 6-7 months, and tells you "If you have any trouble with your work, come to me and give me a call, and I will help you out!". He leaves, and a month or two later, you call him, and he doesn't answer. You call him several times, and he doesn't answer. How much faith would you have in your boss after that?

I don't know, I'm confused and looking for answers. What do you all think?

Your comments remind me of the theological debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If you realise the bible is simply mythology and humans have invented gods, there is no more confusion. Drop the fallacy and accept reality. It is quite simple really.

Maybe read the Book of Job.

You are entitled to your opinion, TallyMan, but if you were raised in a Christian household, as I was, you can't simply brush off what you learned and what you've seen to be true.

Although I am angry at God, I can't deny that He doesn't exist, and that men created Him, and that this is all one big mythology. I've seen guys who were drug dealers become Christians and do a complete 180, I've seen alcoholics and drug addicts do the same. Even Bettie Page, the famous pin-up model, and Crissy Moran, a famous American porn star, Dave Ellefson from Megadeth, Dave Mustaine from Megadeth, and Brian Welch from Korn became Christians, and completely turned their lives around for the better.

If God is simply an invention of mankind, and the Bible merely a mythology, why would any of these people turn around and completely change their lives? You might argue that they were looking for meaning and found it through religion, but I would also point out the inherent difficulties of giving up drug addictions, alcohol addictions, and that most people, without any form of rehabilitation or religion will frequently relapse into old habits.

I have read the Book of Job and I will summarize it briefly in chronological order:

1. Satan visits God, God brags about how righteous and God-fearing Job is, Satan says "He only love you because you provide for him
and give him good things. Take away all these things, and he will curse you." God says "Do whatever you like to test his faith, just don't
kill him."

2. Job has many misfortunes, his flocks of oxen and sheep are destroyed, his camels and donkeys are stolen by raiders/thieves. A great
wind knocks down the house of Job's children and kills them. Job mourns the losses, but does not curse God.

3. Satan asks God "Can I afflict Job with diseases and boils, etc and so forth". God says "Yes, but do not kill him". Job develops sores,
boils, and is in great pain. Job's wife tries to get him to curse God, Job says "You talk like a foolish woman, should we accept the good
from God and not the evil?"

4. Job's amigos come visit to comfort him in his suffering. Some of them allude to God punishing Job for some secret sin that he did not
commit. Another is angry at him, and says he did something to deserve this. Another says "Ask God for mercy and forgiveness, and
He'll lift you up and restore you."

5. Job basically says "Shut up everyone, I didn't do anything wrong. I want to talk to God. I want to talk to Him face to face and know why
He is punishing me."

6. God shows up in a windstorm, and He says this: "Job, do you know who I am? I'm God! I created the heavens and the earth, I created the
animals of the earth, the constellations, the stars, the universe. I know everything, I designed everything! What have you created? What
have you designed. How much do you know? You have lived such a long life, you must know so much! You should trust me because I
know what I'm doing and I have everything planned out. Know who I am."

Job shuts up. God says to Job's friends "I'm not happy with you, you spoke false about me. Sacrifice your best flocks, and let Job pray
for you on My behalf, and we're cool, k?

They do, they are forgiven, and God restores Job with a new family, and twice as much possessions as he had before. And everyone
lived happily thereafter. The End.


So in essence, the moral of the story is that God is in control of everything, and if your life sucks, it is because He's testing your faith.

That doesn't explain, though, why people are suffering for nothing they did wrong. It doesn't explain the diseases, mental disorders, and XYZ that we deal with. Is it merely a test, or is it just our design to suffer in this mortal coil for no understandable reason?

It is entertaining. God is a jerk. Scratch that, a bored jerk, and we are his entertainment.

V

I'll give you some alternate interpretations of what you've read.

Starting with Genesis. Question: Is there true freedom of choice if nothing is forbidden. Miraslov Volf (book: Free of Charge) gives the idea that the "forbidden tree" is there as an example of how much is NOT forbidden. If the tree simply didn't exist how could Adam and Eve ever truly have a choice?

Next, what is the actual lie that the serpent tells? Most people say the serpent's lie is that you won't actually die from eating the fruit but I say the lie is different. The serpent's lie is that God is attempting to keep humans from being like him and that the way to be like God is to know good and evil. (Gen 3:5) But this is simply not true. Gen 1:26 clearly shows that God wants humans to be like him.

So, what is God like? The disciple John says God is love. So to be like God humans should be love. The knowledge of good and evil is not love. This is the lie of the serpent. The serpent says that the way to be like God is actually a way that is not like God.

The next item is our present state. My statement is that Jesus is not plan B. In the set up you give Jesus is plan B, meaning Adam and Eve were plan A but they screwed it up so Jesus has to fix it as plan B. Jesus is not plan B, he is plan A. The garden of Eden is not the completed perfect paradise. The Resurrection is the completed perfect paradise. The Resurrected Jesus is the human who is like God and he is the FIRST human who is like God. (Colossians 1:15-20) In the most simplest of terms, every thing we experience on this earth is INCOMPLETE and will only be complete in the resurrection. Illness and abnormalities are not the result of any specific thing, they are the precursor to completeness. This creation thing simply isn't finished and that unfinishedness is sometimes painful. (Romans 8:21-23)

As to your question "Why should we trust God (Father)?" The image you give is unfortunately the result of modern evangelicalism. It's not God at all. This might take a while to rework but God doesn't give people a HUGE amount of work, in fact quite the opposite. (Matthew 11:28-30) Paul Young's book The Shack might be good reading material for rethinking this. Or if you want more theologically based reading you can try Baxter Kruger or Karl Barth.

Those are answers to the question "Why?" but most of the time answering "why" doesn't help anyone. Especially when they are suffering. A better question is the one echoed in Psalms 6:2-4, "How long?" Help IS coming. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next year, maybe next decade. However long, help is coming. This isn't a cop out either. When you break an arm or a leg, it takes time to heal. When you change careers it takes time to learn. When the hero saves the captives it takes time to defeat the bad guy. In all of these situations people must wait in suffering. The thing that is special about christianity is that not even death can defeat God. All death and suffering will be defeated in time.

Here's a theological question for ya' - why would God, being all knowing, create people who feel the need to post on threads in forums when they are politely asked not to?

We are starting this from the premise that the Bible is true. If you wish to discuss that, we can start another thread, and I will go into detail as to why I believe it is.

Now, the problem of evil... I suppose the first thing we should do, when trying to decide how bent two things are relative to each other, is to figure out what we mean by straight. There isn't much difference between 89 degrees and 90 degrees when you compare them to a straight line. Are we working on the basis of a perfect world where everything is what we would consider perfect - everyone has a fully functioning brain and body, and no-one has any problems with depression, and all this is not the result of some Brave New World-esque utopia.

Which then, as C.S. Lewis points out in The Problem of Pain, runs into the problem of free will. If people are not allowed to be disabled, what about someone's free will to take actions which lead to themselves being disabled? Is God to intervene personally to forcibly prevent someone from falling after they try to jump off a cliff? Or, indeed, from hurting themselves if they step on a nail? That then raises the question of physical pain, which is not of itself a bad thing, since it stops us from burning our hands off among other examples. Given the world we live in (physical), then we have to have pain in order to stop us from killing ourselves by accident. I see nothing in the Bible to suggest that, had the fall not occurred, people would be immune to injuring themselves. So physical pain, at least, is something that I would say has been intended as part of creation from the beginning (Adam and Eve apparently knew about it before God told them the consequences in full, otherwise they wouldn't understand it).

We've then also got the example of Jesus healing the paralytic, among other things, which suggest that physical problems are small in comparison to our spiritual problems - so we're all in just as big a mess in what matters the most, whether we're a rich genius supermodel athlete or a starving child with down syndrome living in a 3rd world country where the local wildlife will eat your face off. What looks like two very different situations, but compared to where they'll be spending the rest of eternity... even if both are saved and both have the same amount of treasure in heaven, compared to what they'll get in heaven the difference between their earthly lives will seem non-existent compared to the difference between the life of the genius supermodel then and now.

Anyway, I'll have more later...

I will address your post in two parts:

Part 1:

As for the problem of free will and pain, I'd like to point out that there is a difference between being born disabled, and being disabled through some accident. I understand the logic of the argument that you are making- that pain is good because it reminds us of our physical limitations, keeps us from further harming ourselves, and reminds us of the consequences of doing certain actions. For example, if you drink too much alcohol, you'll feel sick, and throw up. That pain is a reminder of your limits.

There is a clear distinction in my mind between being born disabled, and being disabled because of some accident. Being born disabled- it is something that you grow up with, struggle with, and it a permanent reminder of who you are. It is an identity. For example- someone who is a high function autistic struggles growing up, and when they realize they are autistic, it is either a source of pride, or of shame. It will remain with them the rest of their lives, and they know it.

A person who disabled because of some accident- they were completely "whole" and fully functional prior to their accident. However, through a mistake, accident, carelessness, or some unpredictable or unforeseen circumstance, they are disabled. While I'm sure it is difficult to cope with being newly disabled, in my mind, they can overcome it easier, simply because prior to the accident, they were "whole", and to overcome their disability, they learn to cope and survive, because prior to that, they were able to cope and survive with better ease.

Part 2:

I understand the analogy you're making- this life and its problems are trivial compared to what awaits in eternity. However, it is my opinion that one can not shake off the worries and problems of this world, because being here right now, we are apart of the world.

On the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave His "Do not worry about your life speech" in Matthew 6:25-34. However, isn't it the struggle of the disabled to worry about their life, considering they know they are different and underdeveloped compared to everyone else? Doesn't the autistic individual, for example, worry about whether he/she will ever find love and get married, whether they will be fully independent, and whether they will get into a good career and be self sufficient- considering how they struggle socially with people?

The struggles of this life, in my opinion, cannot be simply overlooked and put aside as trivial. They may be trivial in the face of eternity, but right here, right now, they are not so trivial.

I agree with you on the second point, actually - being told that there are children starving in Africa does not make someone smashing your window any better. But it's still something important to bear in mind, that people who seem better off might not actually be better off in a centuries time.

As for the first point... which is worse, emotional pain or physical pain? It seems that most people believe it is the former, though they might not realise it - would you prefer to be punched in the face or have a dear relationship destroyed? That was perhaps a rather extreme example, but, assuming most people would save the relationship, it illustrates my point that we consider emotional hurt to be worse.

Emotional hurt, of course, is not something that can be removed from current world, because removing peoples ability to inflict it would require removing the possibility of free will and relationships - if one has free will in a relationship, then one must have the free will to do things which hurt the other person. That kind of pain, we can't remove.

You were asking, however, about things that people are born into. Often/always, these things happen as the result of free will somewhere along the line - the ultimate goes back to the fall, but that's not what I'm talking about here. The children born deformed as a result of Thalidomide wouldn't have been had their mothers not taken the drug, which wouldn't have happened if someone, somewhere had bothered to run proper tests - that is, their deformities came about as a consequence of someone's choice.

That's another extreme example. Returning to the example you gave of someone with high functioning autism, that goes back to the age-old question of, "what is health?". It's possible to conceive of an environment where they would not be disabled. That they do not live in such an environment comes back to human choices.

Which, incidentally, demonstrates why Hell exists, because Heaven can only be perfect if it's populated with perfect people, and the only people then who can populate it are those who have made the decision to let God perfect them. It's the only way we can live in a perfect world whilst retaining free will.

I think you completely missed the definition of the word "Origin sin." This is not related with being enabled or not: Every human being, anyway which advantages or misadvantages, has the exact same amount of Origin Sin in it. The Origin Sin is simply based on the sindoing of Eva and Adam. Before the sindoing of Eva and Adam, they were directly connected to god, there was no sin in them, in their doing or their thaughts. So they were with god, and god was with them. With the sindoing this bond was destroyed, and the origin sin, every human bears stands for him/her being capable to commit sins. So in opposite to Adam and Eva, who needed to be tempted by the Snake, an outsider, the ability to commit sins is now in every human himself, this is the origin sin every human carries within himself.

So Eva and Adam, they way the were created, would not have been capable to do sins on their own. But by letting themselves get attempted by the snake, they let the sin into them, and because of bearing the capability to commit sins within them, they also inherited these capability to their children, who were born with the ability to commit sins...the origin sin.

So the origin sin, is no sufferment of god to punish someone its simply a difference between Adam and Eva who were created by God without sin and so had a bond to him without further doing, and us that are born with the capability to commit sin, that are not bond to god automatic, but that need to create that bond by our own will, as we do with the christening. So the origin sin prevents us from having that bond to god from the moment we are born, but it doesnt prevent us from forming that bond with god ourselves. We are simply forced to do now by doing it active, instead of getting this bond as a present from the moment we start to exist.

I am highly interested in religions, but I do not believe myself. But the answer to this question is quiet simply. Because they were afterwards happier. I dont need a god to make me happy to have a good relationship with my neighbor. Having a good relationship to my neighbor simply makes you happier, because it gives you peace and calmness. If you dont trust your neighbor and are afraif of him, this will affect your mood in a negative way. While trusting your neighbor leads to you not wasting thoughts on how you can protect yourself because of him, and what he could do to you. When we are young many of us are simply overwhelmed by media that tells us, that we need this or that s**t, to acchieve succes to acchieve happiness. But when you get older, you acchieve this and that, and you acchieve success with it, but you dont acchieve happiness. Instead you mention, that the moments you are really happy are not those where you acchieve things or success, but simply normal things like spening time with friends, alloweing yourself to take a day off from success having and simply do some gardening and so on.

I think you highly ignore the difference between the old and new testament. God as he was described in the old testament was a very harsh god, one that demanded from you, one that didnt forgive you, one that wanted to be worshiped, as example by demanding from people to sacrifice their firstborn sons to him, killing lots of innocent egyptian children...

The big thing about eastern and why it is the most worshiped day you celebrate in christian religion is not because of Jesus prolling with his super ability to raise from the dead, its not about jesus being dead.... but its that god decided to change his behaviour against the humans. He sent his sons to speak to us, that in opposition to the time before when a sin was sin and you had to pay for it, that he learned about forgiveness if he saw truly regret in your heart. Before you could regret truly as much as you wanted, if you commited a sin you had to face it forever. And as a visible sign for this change, he, who was before demanding his followers to sacrifice them their firstbon sons, sacrificed his own son to us, so we could see that he really meant it. From a god standing high above us and demanding us to adore him, by frightening us with punishement, he stepped down toward us to reach us his hands. So yes, the old god of the old testament and the jews was a tyrant a**hole. But this change of god by his own will, is what eastern is about. That he decided that he doesnt want to be that god anymore, that let Job suffer so much, out of fun because of betting with the devil. But one that cared for humans as a sheeper cares for his sheeps.

If someone hurts you, then they have left Adam and Eve, not you.

But having a weak stomach, a lot of things hurt us which normally don't.

Lolwut? I'm reading the Bible in chronological order this year, and in my reading of the Old Testament I have not found a God like the one you're describing. Instead, I've found a God who forgives His peoples constant failings, and who takes good peoples lives in order that they wouldn't suffer His wrath - terrible if you read it without acknowledging the resurrection, but it makes sense with that. You evidently Did Not Do The Research if you think that God was harsh and unforgiving.

As far as Original Sin goes, I don't believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity - I do actually think people can choose good of their own initiative. But no matter how much they try, they can't regain that relationship with God through their own efforts, because that separation is what I would call Original Sin, and is inherited. What Jesus became is a template, if you like, a Second Adam, which allows us to become reconnected to God.

So, do Christians have Original Sin? Now that's an interesting question...

Respectfully, in the cases of the people that you're mentioning, I suggest that none of this proves that god exists, or anything even remotely close to that. I think the thought process you've gone through here is that if someone believes in god, and if good things happen to that person, then those good things only happened because god caused them to, and this, therefore, proves that god exists. In doing so, you've discounted, but not disproved, the many other possible explanations for the good things happening that have nothing to do with god.

I'm completely with you in that a person's beliefs in god, if strong enough, can help them overcome difficult situations like drug addiction. And if their beliefs help them in this way, I'm all for it. But while overcoming something difficult through your beliefs certainly validates the strength of your beliefs, it does not validate the accuracy or correctness of your beliefs. So overcoming drug addiction through belief in god at the end of the day does not prove the existence of god, it only proves the existence of your belief in god.

I agree, God should give us free will, and if he does, then we must be allowed to hurt ourselves if we so chose. So the idea that people are disabled is not inconsistent with god, per se. But if we're talking about birth defects, genetic issues, etc., then these have nothing to do with a person exercising their free will. It seems that everyone ought to start out on an even playing field, and I think that is the OP's point - if birth defects and things like that are punishment for the original sin, why are some punished more than others, and still others not punished at all? If I must pay a part of the price for the original sin, why must I pay more than someone else, when my role in the original sin, and the blame that can be ascribed to me, is no different than anyone else's?

Because they are not punishment for original sin? If someone punches you because you took actions which led to you and them being caught shoplifting, that is not your punishment for shoplifting, that is them taking out their anger on you. To go back to an old discussion on this forum, someone being raped in prison is not them being punished for their crime, but it is indirectly a result of their crime.

As I've mentioned before, a lot, if not most, of disability can be put down to human choice. The rest can be explained as being the result of degenerate creation. It's pointless asking why it is that someone gets to win the lottery when you don't, just as it's pointless asking why you have to deal with random genetic damage when someone else doesn't.

Also, if people want to debate the existence of God, start a thread and I'll talk about it.