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syzygyish
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28 Jul 2013, 5:41 am

They build nation states like that's the natural state!
They divide up natural communities and tell them to make war on each other
They divide up un natural communites and tell them to make peace with each other
they draw lines on Maps and tell them how to behave

Since the invention of Agriculture there has been a surplus of boys
boys = warriors
warriors = a mind set
a mind set = a permanent and fixed way of thinking

havntfound away out this dimemmna
hope you can help me our
t


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ruveyn
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28 Jul 2013, 9:28 am

You have just described The Human Condition.



Misslizard
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28 Jul 2013, 9:53 am

Live/Evil.


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neilson_wheels
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28 Jul 2013, 10:42 am

You can take the human out of nature, but you can't take nature out of the human.



Mike1
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28 Jul 2013, 12:47 pm

That's why I prefer regionalism to nationalism. Nationalism lets federal governments decide where to draw lines on maps, but regionalism lets you draw your own lines. If all of the world's large countries fragmented into many smaller pieces, I believe that the majority of people would decide to identify with regions that would encompass multiple federal government jurisdictions, rather than just one. This would greatly weaken the ability of governments to push propaganda on individuals living under their jurisdictions. I'm not just a regionalist because I identify with my own region, but because I believe that regionalism would ultimately be a better universal standard of identity than nationalism.



puddingmouse
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28 Jul 2013, 5:37 pm

I think in the future humans will either become more internationalist by choice/reason or they will be forced to by circumstance. Either that or we will descend into tribalism, which is nationalism on a smaller scale.


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albedo
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28 Jul 2013, 5:48 pm

The historical evidence is we actually have less wars with less casualties the that we used to.

Search for an excellent TED lecture on the subject.

One of thew reasons why we are so tired of conflict, is we are much less tolerant of it, and we also have much higher standard an expectations, than civilizations used to.

Hysteria, small world syndrome, and natural empathy heightens the mental effect of conflict. However look at the actual numbers, and durations and put it into historical context..

Don't get me wrong we are still pretty violent animal, we just temper that violence (no pun intended ;))

I though I'd inject a bit of perspective into this debate, before the doomsayer get in.



albedo
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28 Jul 2013, 6:32 pm

Don't get me wrong I think we are a bit confused in a sense.

Think of it from an animal behavior point of view. A group of chimps has a territory, there is conflict where territories overlap, and where different rival group of chimps come into contact. Although the group social dynamic are fairly complicated, there is fairly simple power structure, due to limited numbers of roles (there aren't all the different careers an vocations like humans have). The groups are not that large, and there isn't much scope for overlapping but different, as it is either more of the same, or it is clear cut hierarchy.

They are very violent of course. Bonobos are somewhat less violent because they use sex to deal with the aggression. That is not to say they aren't capable. One of the reason why they are like that is they are quite isolated and there aren't that many of them, it is interesting that bonobos and chimps live on opposite sides of a river, and they probably aren't that aware of each other, they simple don't come into contact with each other.

Now consider how we live. We live in large number generally speaking, we have extremely complex social structures, with lot of overlapping ever shifting power, and everything is quite ambiguous and dynamic.

We still have territorial behaviors, or there wouldn't these nations, and all sort of other societal factions. However this is very different from other animal's idea of territory on the whole. Perhaps if we are talking about some lost tribe in the amazon there might be a simualriity, but in the rest of the world not really. We have traded with each other, people interact on different sides of the world like we are doing now. When we go to war, it is not all out like a group if chimps going all out against another.

One of the enduring feature of our success is our ability to contort our very nature to fit in an otherwise improbable scenario. However as a consequence of that we exhibit neurosis and mental illness. Observation of canines in the wild (dingos, wolfs, etc) is that each animal has a very consistent behavior for its role. It is only those that are diseased, or had physical trauma to the brain that would exhibit an inconsistent neurotic behavior (btw this is not the same as saying they would act like a stable person, clearly their behavior is very different and odd to us some of the time, but not abnormal in terms of the group). However pet dogs do exhibit necrotic behavior, especially if they are not given an appropriate pack role in the home. Wolfs are really good example of a simpler rigid group behavior.

There is a lot o talk in L&D section about "Alpha males", etc. However this is not as relevant to humans, because we aren't as rigid in our power structures, our social structures are complex and dynamic. What is referred to as a Alfa male is subjective in humans (you can't really say it is a thing at all). It isn't subjective in wolfs. Alfa male in a wolf pack, pretty much ensures that the other males don't mate, and control the pack as a whole. Simply not going to happen in humans, or many other species of mammals or birds. As it happens some beta male wolfs do get to mate, whilst they are in that beta status, but it is rarer, they are kept pretty much in check, opportunities are fleeting, and the have to work together anyway to survive, so there is little choice.



Robdemanc
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29 Jul 2013, 1:37 pm

What do you get if you give an Ape too much time to think?



Misslizard
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29 Jul 2013, 2:32 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
What do you get if you give an Ape too much time to think?

Image
Something like this. :lol:


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