Can something create something more complex than itself?
This is an old philosophical question, and I'm going to try tackling it from a computer science standpoint. So here is my model. Let's just have programs in some generic programming language, so the program itself is a string of text. All programs in this language also output some single string of text. Because both the program and output are the same data format, a program could potentially output it's own text. Such a program is called a quine.
If a program only consists of procedural commands and no control commands (so it performs the same operations in the same sequence regardless of the state of things), then it's impossible for a program to create any non-trivial quine (one which consist of commands which just print themselves or some variation on that trick, and that's just a lame tautology avoiding the argument). This is because using just procedural commands that are actually versatile it takes more characters to describe how to create itself than it does to just be itself as there is generally takes several characters to output a single one, so it's impossible with any finite string as it cannot have more characters than itself. The string output model for this seems rather silly as with only procedural commands being utilized all the program can actually do is a combination of absolutely nothing, defining variables that can't actually be used for anything so more absolutely nothing, and outputting with themselves. So it makes sense to just make a programming language which just outputs as it's only command...but then that's basically just the trivial quines. So let's slightly change out definition so instead of being abstract strings, it consists of symbols engraved in stone, and the procedural commands consist of directions for moving a stylus that engraves in stone. It would pretty obviously take multiple symbols to engrave a single one, and thus the previous statement holds. This second model also makes since in the context of physical reality. This is the basis for many philosophies about creation, the idea that creators must strictly be more complex than their creations, unless there is a creator of infinite complexity like God.
However,our understanding of physical reality as it appears that when something affects something else, it is also affected by said thing. This leads to the introduction of control commands, which instead of outputting something specific either output something based on some variable or input, or it changes the order in which procedure commands are run. Ultimately, any program using control commands is equivalent to a procedural program for a given input, as only the output matters, and each segment of output corresponds with a procedural command. However, the earlier restriction no longer applies as the original program is typically much shorter than the procedural version as a variable can represent several symbols using a single, and changing the order of commands makes it so that a command which is only written once can be executed multiple times. Not only is it now theoretically possible, but it's been done countless times. And hey, life reproduces, so clearly stuff can self-replicate in our world as well. And when it's possible to make a quine, making a more complex version is trivial, just change one symbol so it prints two copies of itself rather than one. Problem solved...
...except it isn't, as the question remains if a program twice as long is actually anymore more complex? Is the complexity of a string the same as it's length? Probably not, as one way of defining complexity is how easy it is to define something, otherwise it's just trivial that something could create something more complex than itself: a single character being repeated for number of times can typically be outputted by a shorter program (we'll use this example: SPE5 -> EEEEE), but it typically takes a longer program to be able to output THAT program (eg. SPSPPPEP5 -> SPE5), so should the program really be considered simpler than the output? So should the complexity be defined by the length of the shortest program the outputs a program, rather than by it's own length? But by that definition, even most short programs would be twice as complex as their length, and that doesn't seem right either. This is especially true considering that quins would always be less or equal complex than their length, so despite conceptually being more complex, they'd be assigned a lower complexity than most other programs their length. So maybe we can definite it as it's length OR the length of the program that generated it, whatever is smallest. This means that our double quine probably won't actually output anything more complex than themselves, as typically it's own complexity will be it's length by the first definition, while it's output would be the same value by the second. It's still possible however the double quine's output to be generated by, if it can be generated by a simpler program itself. But now basically all we did was deflect the complexity problem, as what basis is there to saying that the program the generates the double quine is the same complexity of the double quine, but the program it generates is more complex? Even if the double quine is more complex than it's generating program, than we come to the same question with the program that generated that, until by infinite descent we're sure to arrive at a deflection case. We could redefine complexity of a program as it's length or the COMPLEXITY of the program that generated it in order to remove an arbitrarily deflection case. But with this definition, the output would obviously never be of a greater complexity as if it would otherwise be larger, so it's really just begging the question. We could define it so it's complexity of the program that generated it + 1, but that automatically assumes something generated by something will be more complex than it. This method clearly isn't going to get us any clear answers as it can simply be defined to answer the question anyway you want it.
So let's try a different approach. Let's instead view programs and their output as natural numbers rather than strings, it's just a simple encryption. Now the entire scheme of the program can just be thought of a infinite sequence, or a function on natural numbers. The number could arbitrarily be defined as the complexity and then their obviously would programs that create more complex programs...except this is really just another phrasing of the previous problem, as the encryption causes the number to be larger if the string is longer. We need to find a fundamentally different way to define complexity. I'll do it as information. The encryption acts as a basic cap on the amount of information in a program, but a number is still just a number. You don't know anything about the effect of a program just from the number that is encrypted. So let's define the information about a program as the association of the program with it's output, an ordered pair (a,b). But this still doesn't tell us everything about it, as the output of the program is still represented as an encrypted number, when it is also actually a program. So we can replace it with an iterated ordered pair, (a,(b,c)), which is equivalent to an ordered triple (a,b,c). The same problem will apply ad infinitum, until the program is no longer really described by a number, but by an infinite sequence. Regardless of exactly how you define the information, it's clear the output of the program can't have MORE information as it's the same sequence, only with the first data point deleted. So that's my conclusion, it is technically impossible.
However, there are still some more technicalities to sort out. The actual programs still only have a finite amount of information in them, but the infinite sequence sometimes represents an infinite amount of information. This information doesn't come from the program, it comes from the scheme, which was previously represented by an infinite sequence and thus could easily have infinite information. You can kinda cheat with this problem by making an arbitrarily complex environment, but the information is all their in the environment. Some theologians argued that evolution occurred as the result of God designing the universe so that things would evolve. So the fundamental program is just a metaphysical one, something cannot have an infinite amount of information in it and cannot create something of greater complexity on it's own, but only through it's interactions with a universe which requires an infinite amount of information to perfectly define. And before you try to argue it a universe can actually be described in a finite amount of information, no, it really can't. First it needs to be determined if the universe is natural or supernatural. If it's supernatural, than any attempt at quantizing it's nature is futile, so it effectively has infinite information. If it's natural, then only the metaphysical and materialistic cases need to be tackled. In the metaphysical case, the laws of the universe could be described in words, but the words are only understood by people who speak the language, and thus just like with the supernatural case, still represents a failure to quantify anything, and there are infinite possibilities for how such world could be defined, it's still infinite information. With the materialist approach, the laws don't actually exist, they are just explanations people give for patterns they find in the jumble of matter. To define the universe is to explicitly define how each arrangement of matter relates to the subsequent arrangement of matter...which is equivalent to the previously mentioned sequence. If only a finite number of possible arrangements are possible in the universe are possible, than technically only a finite sequence is required, but it still contains all the information.
Well, at least this sums of the problem for deterministic universes. For non-deterministic ones, the computer science model doesn't work so well, and things get weird. First, if system is mostly determinist, but has some random parts, than it can be argued the random parts add more information into the system over time based on how exactly they roll. With this model it could be argued that program could output a more complex program with...but there still needs to be a scheme for how randomness works, so it's really more of the same thing. The other issue is that fact it's OBVIOUS that people can reproduce biologically and create people of equal complexity, so that clearly isn't a solution to the actual philosophical problem. One way of redefining it is a person could create another person by choice, and only through his own choices based on his own knowledge. This can't be modeled with the computer, as choice implies non-determinism, and you can't create something that is non-deterministic using a deterministic system. I got no answer to this.
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In a dispersive far from equilibrium system entropy increase can cause self-organizing behavior.
Have a look here: http://www.scottcamazine.com/Camazine_i ... zation.pdf
and here: http://www.holon.se/folke/written/stuff ... CKAPPA.pdf
And the grand-dad of all the morphogenesis papers by Alan Turing himself:
http://www.dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs19 ... turing.pdf
Turing was just beginning to get in morphogenesis (self-organization) when his trouble with the police started. It eventually lead to his suicide. What a waste!
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None of y'all are philosophers, y'all came in here with assumptions about this problem I already challenged in the initial post. This is the philosophy board, not the science and technology board. Stop throwing science and technology at me which I can easily explain, and start throwing actual ideas.
Yes, I have, and I was thinking about it while I wrote this. The game is computationally equivalent to a Turing machine, so it works the same way as the abstract programming language I discussed. It contradicts nothing I said, as the rule set for Conway's Game of Life contains all the information needed to create more complex patterns from a simpler pattern. You could argue the rule set only contains a finite set of information, but that finite set of information only creates Conway's Game of Life in a certain scheme for cellular automaton.
Add to that, animals can breed more advanced versions of themselves over generations. That's called evolution.
No, it can't. If you're trying to argue that Watson or Deep Learning somehow create more complex versions of themselves they don't, they solve problems. If you're trying to argue that Watson and Deep Learning are more complex than the people who created them, they aren't. They aren't even more complex than a single person: while their design is complex, it's not nearly as complex as the design of the human brain, let alone an entire human body. I'd argue we've never even created something as complex as a single ribosome. The layers of hardware used to structure the architecture of these super computers can be completely understood in terms of layers of abstraction, same for their software. That can't be said for the human brain, otherwise neuroscience would be a solved problem. I study both computer science and psychology, computers really aren't that complex at all, while people really are that freaking complex. Finally, these machines were made by MULTIPLE different people, so it doesn't count anyway.
Regarding animals, they don't breed more advanced versions of themselves. First that violates the theory of natural selection where there is no such thing as more advanced. Second, animals don't breed more *complex* versions of themselves either, they breed more or less identical versions of themselves in an abstract sense. Technically animals directly create less complex creatures than they are, just a cluster of cells, but these simpler creatures grow more complex over time as they grow. If you are argue that the initial cell is as a complex as the whole cell, then it kinda assumes the end result of something is only as complex as it's source. The environment may cause there to be mutations, and then the environment determines if the mutated creature survives or not. So again, for evolution that information is all in the environment, not the creature. It doesn't create something more complex on it's own, but only as the result of influence from an outside source.
A one-celled animal can, and did, create a two-celled animal----after this phase (i.e., the transformation from one-celled to multicellular-life) is reached, infinity is possible!
While it can be argued that multicellular life evolved from single celled life and multicellular life evolved is more complex than single celled life, it can also be argued that with evolution by natural selection, an organism does NOT create it's descendants, but rather the environment does. Also, I highly doubt that two-celled organism were actually part of the chain: the most likely explanation is actually that the first multicellular organisms were just colonies of single celled organisms, which become more organized over time, and as it got more organized it became easier to conceptualize the colony is it's own organism rather than just multiple different organisms working together through symbiosis. As multicellular organisms we are kinda biased when it comes to this question.
Have a look here: http://www.scottcamazine.com/Camazine_i ... zation.pdf
and here: http://www.holon.se/folke/written/stuff ... CKAPPA.pdf
And the grand-dad of all the morphogenesis papers by Alan Turing himself:
http://www.dna.caltech.edu/courses/cs19 ... turing.pdf
Turing was just beginning to get in morphogenesis (self-organization) when his trouble with the police started. It eventually lead to his suicide. What a waste!
Self-organization is NOT the same as something creating something more complex than itself. The complexity in self-organization comes not from a simpler entity physically creating another more complex than itself, but from multiple simpler parts together being regarded as a more complex system.
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I guess the main question behind the final point in my initial post is "can something fully comprehend itself?" Because if something did, and it had the resources to construct potentially anything, then it could willfully create a copy of itself. But of comprehension is hard coded memory, than something with finite memory couldn't fully comprehend itself as it wouldn't have enough memory to comprehend all its memory (arguably, I have some arguments to the contrary related to redundancies and only have to understand a basic form rather than with all the specific details about how it's configured, but we'll ignore that for now). However, something with infinite memory could potentially comprehend itself.
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Science, Math and Technology are the source of our Best Ideas. Philosophy does not deliver. Science and Technology do. Philosophy is in the same boat as Theology. Both are obsolete approaches to understanding ourselves and the world we live in.
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THAT...I think, is a most pertinent question--whether inanimate things like computers can become sentient.
Being sentient/non-sentient draws the boundary between a Supreme Being/god and a Superior Force.
I didn't realize the importantance of that question to this question until this post.
Science, Math and Technology are the source of our Best Ideas. Philosophy does not deliver. Science and Technology do. Philosophy is in the same boat as Theology. Both are obsolete approaches to understanding ourselves and the world we live in.
Pfft. No they aren't. First, science and math are just different epistemologies represented by philosophy. Saying philosophy doesn't deliver is to say math and science don't deliver. Second, the usefulness of an epsitemology depends on the nature of the knowledge being investigated. Technology is the application of knowledge, and the type of knowledge it needs to apply are those best found through science and math. But other fields science and math are basically useless, like history. The point is this isn't a technology question, it's a philosophical question, and thus should be approached philosophically. Finally, I DID use math in my argument.
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DNA is just different combinations of the same exact s**t. We've got guananine adenine, thymine, and cytosine. Not very complex.
Is complexity just random combinations of the same thing?
Complex songs are just complex combinations of individual notes and individual note durations. I feel it's the same with DNA. You take some preexisting things and combine them in an arbitrary way you might create something spectacular just by chance.
I'm not being scientific, but I don't actually think it's possible for a thing to create something more complex than itself. If we want to go this way we are going into God territory IMO.
Look at children. They can seem very smart and mature but mostly they are just imitating what they have learned from their environment. Same with adults.
Computer programs are not smart. They were created by smart people but I don't think a computer program will ever be created that is on par with a human being. I just don't think it will happen. Humans are smarter than computers. Just the way it is.
Merely different combinations of the same elements? The same could be said about the entire observable universe. Seems like a bunch of fermions and bosons in different combinations...
In the "just different combinations" of DNA is the difference between paramecium and primate. I don't know anyone who has studied biology who will assert that the subject is not complex.
I'm not sure your use of the word "just" is appropriate. It's sort of "begging the question."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complexity
Complexity is generally used to characterize something with many parts where those parts interact with each other in multiple ways, culminating in a higher order of emergence greater than the sum of its parts. There is no absolute definition of what complexity means; the only consensus among researchers is that there is no agreement about the specific definition of complexity.
Given common uses of the term complexity, all observable reality seems to display complexity and be based on the emergent phenomena created by the interaction of a few simple things.
The action of a god doesn't seem to fit any of the observed complex relationships of things in the universe, so there doesn't seem to be any particular utility in defining some area as "God territory."
Perhaps the only definition of god that makes sense to me would be as referent to the interplay of simple elements from which complexity emerges, an idea hinted at in the "ground of all being" definition for god some theologians have arrived at. I suspect this is unsatisfactory to most people who are drawn to the idea of a god or gods, though.
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Pfft. No they aren't. First, science and math are just different epistemologies represented by philosophy. Saying philosophy doesn't deliver is to say math and science don't deliver. Second, the usefulness of an epsitemology depends on the nature of the knowledge being investigated. Technology is the application of knowledge, and the type of knowledge it needs to apply are those best found through science and math. But other fields science and math are basically useless, like history. The point is this isn't a technology question, it's a philosophical question, and thus should be approached philosophically. Finally, I DID use math in my argument.
Philosophy has been a millstone around the neck of science and technology since Aristotle told us heavier things fall faster than light things, the earth is the center of the universe, and women have fewer teeth and ribs than men....
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Socrates' Last Words: I drank what!! !?????
Perhaps it's a Zen thing
Before enlightenment a blade of grass was simply a blade of grass.
After enlightenment it was much more.
Years later it is sometimes just a blade of grass.
Perhaps the easy answer is perhaps
Perhaps it is also complex.
(Insert story of perhaps and the farmers horse.)
me,,not that kind of dr.
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