The rest of the world must impose sanctions against the US

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beneficii
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29 Nov 2016, 4:22 am

Donald Trump is pretending anthropogenic global warming isn't real at all, and plans to trash the Paris Accord and other agreements, causing the country most responsible for AGW to be back on a course to warming the planet up. The rest of the world cannot stand for this and must retaliate: If the US will not make its economy green, then the US economy must collapse for the world's sake.


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eric76
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29 Nov 2016, 4:49 am

Nonsense.

What we should all remember about Global Warming is that it is good up to some point that we will probably never reach. Sure, there will be some downsides, but overall, it is quite beneficial.

This is especially true in growing food. A warm planet is a productive planet. Our only hope for feeding our growing population is warming.

The disaster would be the inevitable Global Cooling that is getting closer. If Global Warming can postpone that for a while, then more power to it. Remember that we are currently in an ice age and have been in it for about 2.6 million years. This is a warm period between glaciations in the ice age. When the next glaciation begins, it is going to get cool and death by starvation will become common as will massive wars for the dwindling food supplies.



kraftiekortie
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29 Nov 2016, 10:31 am

Why should we punish 320,000,000 or so people for the misguided policies of their government?

I find the logic screwy, frankly.



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29 Nov 2016, 1:40 pm

If the Brits did not attack or do any anything to America for the IRA terrorism which was mostly funded by Americans and included an attack that killed Lord Mountbatton and a failed attack that nearly killed Thatcher why would you think the world would get together to punish America now?


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Sweetleaf
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29 Nov 2016, 2:39 pm

I don't see how we're going to 'make this country great' when trumps plans as far as environmental concerns is to pretty much ignore it and refuse to move towards more renewable energy and reduce negative human impact to the environment.

If we're such a great western nation shouldn't we be a leader in helping clean up the planet, so this generation and future ones can thrive? Meh guess that's not on trump or the republicans to do list.


I don't know about anyone else but I'd prefer not to have to breath thick smog like that which occurs in china due to increasing industrialization without much regulation or proper controls on pollutants here in the U.S.


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29 Nov 2016, 3:43 pm

I would agree with you if we were talking strictly in hypotheticals about what we should do if Latveria refused to abide by global treaties aimed at preventing the destruction of the planet.

However, the US is too big to fail. If it goes into recession, so does most of the world. There's an argument that would be good for the planet, but it would be bad for the people living on it, and it would probably harm renewable energy projects.

And with that thin-skinned nutcase in the White House, the rest of the world will be treading even more carefully to avoid earn his wrath.

I think the better approach is to convince Trump to support renewable energy (and nuclear). Emphasise that it is a fantastic opportunity for entrepreneurship. America is a world leader in energy technology and could stand to make a lot of money exporting these technologies globally. It will increase energy independence and therefore limit the global influence of the Saudis and Iranians (and any other groups that Trump may dislike - Venezuelan communists?). America can't afford to get left behind by China.

The environmentalist angle doesn't seem to work with him, so play up the business/patriotic angle and maybe sneak in the science and environmentalism on the side.



Sweetleaf
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29 Nov 2016, 3:48 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I would agree with you if we were talking strictly in hypotheticals about what we should do if Latveria refused to abide by global treaties aimed at preventing the destruction of the planet.

However, the US is too big to fail. If it goes into recession, so does most of the world. There's an argument that would be good for the planet, but it would be bad for the people living on it, and it would probably harm renewable energy projects.

And with that thin-skinned nutcase in the White House, the rest of the world will be treading even more carefully to avoid earn his wrath.

I think the better approach is to convince Trump to support renewable energy (and nuclear). Emphasise that it is a fantastic opportunity for entrepreneurship. America is a world leader in energy technology and could stand to make a lot of money exporting these technologies globally. It will increase energy independence and therefore limit the global influence of the Saudis and Iranians (and any other groups that Trump may dislike - Venezuelan communists?). America can't afford to get left behind by China.

The environmentalist angle doesn't seem to work with him, so play up the business/patriotic angle and maybe sneak in the science and environmentalism on the side.


I was kind of thinking of something similar a while back....it is certainly probable that he could be swayed if it was presented to him in such a way.


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beneficii
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29 Nov 2016, 3:53 pm

The Walrus,

I would say the rest of the world needs to stop sucking America's teat. If America is too big to fail, help movements like Calexit split it up.

But I will say this, don't expect Trump to negotiate in good faith. Trump has a history of not keeping up his end of the bargain, like when his casino ordered a bunch of pianos and then stiffed the seller, who never received payment for the pianos they delivered.

You will have to bring out the stick as well as the carrot.


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29 Nov 2016, 7:30 pm

Punish the US?
I don't think so. :lol:
We're the ones that mete out the punishment, it's one of the perks of being a superpower.


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BaalChatzaf
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29 Nov 2016, 8:37 pm

beneficii wrote:
Donald Trump is pretending anthropogenic global warming isn't real at all, and plans to trash the Paris Accord and other agreements, causing the country most responsible for AGW to be back on a course to warming the planet up. The rest of the world cannot stand for this and must retaliate: If the US will not make its economy green, then the US economy must collapse for the world's sake.


So far Trump has done nothing in his new capacity. He is yet to be sworn in. Once sworn in he will be constrained b y the politics and the Constitution as are all Presidents. A President is not an elected king, although it seems that way sometimes.


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LoveNotHate
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29 Nov 2016, 8:47 pm

BaalChatzaf wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Donald Trump is pretending anthropogenic global warming isn't real at all, and plans to trash the Paris Accord and other agreements, causing the country most responsible for AGW to be back on a course to warming the planet up. The rest of the world cannot stand for this and must retaliate: If the US will not make its economy green, then the US economy must collapse for the world's sake.


So far Trump has done nothing in his new capacity. He is yet to be sworn in. Once sworn in he will be constrained b y the politics and the Constitution as are all Presidents. A President is not an elected king, although it seems that way sometimes.


The "Paris agreement" was not a ratified treaty, but rather an executive order. As are most of the "clean energy" initiatives.

Trump has promised to rescind all of Obama's "clean energy" executive orders.

So, he's not constrained at all.



eric76
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30 Nov 2016, 12:27 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't see how we're going to 'make this country great' when trumps plans as far as environmental concerns is to pretty much ignore it and refuse to move towards more renewable energy and reduce negative human impact to the environment.

If we're such a great western nation shouldn't we be a leader in helping clean up the planet, so this generation and future ones can thrive? Meh guess that's not on trump or the republicans to do list.


I don't know about anyone else but I'd prefer not to have to breath thick smog like that which occurs in china due to increasing industrialization without much regulation or proper controls on pollutants here in the U.S.


Isn't the air over major US cities getting cleaner, not dirtier?



beneficii
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30 Nov 2016, 3:26 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I would agree with you if we were talking strictly in hypotheticals about what we should do if Latveria refused to abide by global treaties aimed at preventing the destruction of the planet.

However, the US is too big to fail. If it goes into recession, so does most of the world. There's an argument that would be good for the planet, but it would be bad for the people living on it, and it would probably harm renewable energy projects.

And with that thin-skinned nutcase in the White House, the rest of the world will be treading even more carefully to avoid earn his wrath.

I think the better approach is to convince Trump to support renewable energy (and nuclear). Emphasise that it is a fantastic opportunity for entrepreneurship. America is a world leader in energy technology and could stand to make a lot of money exporting these technologies globally. It will increase energy independence and therefore limit the global influence of the Saudis and Iranians (and any other groups that Trump may dislike - Venezuelan communists?). America can't afford to get left behind by China.

The environmentalist angle doesn't seem to work with him, so play up the business/patriotic angle and maybe sneak in the science and environmentalism on the side.


I will also say this, y'all's enabling of the United States is hurting us all. You may not have noticed, but unlike in your country, we have failed to metricate, we lack truly universal health care, and we have a crappy public transit system; and now, we have a leader that likes to pretend AGW doesn't exist.

Our expats living abroad are harassed about filing taxes every year, even if they don't owe any taxes and no matter how long they've lived abroad,--the only country other than Eritrea to do this--partly because your countries sold out and decided to report their financial information to the US government, even as the US government refuses to reciprocate and report your citizens' accounts in the US. The US is now one of the world's largest tax havens. I hope you guys feel so proud.

If your countries weren't so intent on propping this abomination up, we would actually feel the consequences of our misguided policies. But because you guys enable our leadership, we never learn.


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beneficii
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30 Nov 2016, 8:14 am

beneficii wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I would agree with you if we were talking strictly in hypotheticals about what we should do if Latveria refused to abide by global treaties aimed at preventing the destruction of the planet.

However, the US is too big to fail. If it goes into recession, so does most of the world. There's an argument that would be good for the planet, but it would be bad for the people living on it, and it would probably harm renewable energy projects.

And with that thin-skinned nutcase in the White House, the rest of the world will be treading even more carefully to avoid earn his wrath.

I think the better approach is to convince Trump to support renewable energy (and nuclear). Emphasise that it is a fantastic opportunity for entrepreneurship. America is a world leader in energy technology and could stand to make a lot of money exporting these technologies globally. It will increase energy independence and therefore limit the global influence of the Saudis and Iranians (and any other groups that Trump may dislike - Venezuelan communists?). America can't afford to get left behind by China.

The environmentalist angle doesn't seem to work with him, so play up the business/patriotic angle and maybe sneak in the science and environmentalism on the side.


I will also say this, y'all's enabling of the United States is hurting us all. You may not have noticed, but unlike in your country, we have failed to metricate, we lack truly universal health care, and we have a crappy public transit system; and now, we have a leader that likes to pretend AGW doesn't exist.

Our expats living abroad are harassed about filing taxes every year, even if they don't owe any taxes and no matter how long they've lived abroad,--the only country other than Eritrea to do this--partly because your countries sold out and decided to report their financial information to the US government, even as the US government refuses to reciprocate and report your citizens' accounts in the US. The US is now one of the world's largest tax havens. I hope you guys feel so proud.

If your countries weren't so intent on propping this abomination up, we would actually feel the consequences of our misguided policies. But because you guys enable our leadership, we never learn.


You know, maybe I've had Trump all wrong. One of the reasons we don't make any real progress on reform in this country is because the establishment as is has been propped up by countries in Europe and elsewhere because it interests them. If you want to demolish this arrangement, Trump is the best person for the job!

If they continue to prop up this unjust system, then they are part of the problem. Let them pay their part in NATO, to keep their prosperous economies and welfare states propped up, or let them face Russia alone. For far too long, they have enriched themselves off the back of the American worker.

I see the logic now. Trump may be a disgusting boor, but he does have a point, and I wonder if he won because a lot of people saw that.


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30 Nov 2016, 2:54 pm

beneficii wrote:
I would say the rest of the world needs to stop sucking America's teat.

I think it's less about sucking at teats, more about living in an interconnected world where everyone relies on everyone else.

Quote:
If America is too big to fail, help movements like Calexit split it up.

While I support this in theory - I think the US would be much better off if it moved to an EU-style system - I think actively supporting it would cross that "meddling in other nations' affairs" line.

beneficii wrote:
I will also say this, y'all's enabling of the United States is hurting us all. You may not have noticed, but unlike in your country, we have failed to metricate, we lack truly universal health care, and we have a crappy public transit system; and now, we have a leader that likes to pretend AGW doesn't exist.

Our expats living abroad are harassed about filing taxes every year, even if they don't owe any taxes and no matter how long they've lived abroad,--the only country other than Eritrea to do this--partly because your countries sold out and decided to report their financial information to the US government, even as the US government refuses to reciprocate and report your citizens' accounts in the US. The US is now one of the world's largest tax havens. I hope you guys feel so proud.

If your countries weren't so intent on propping this abomination up, we would actually feel the consequences of our misguided policies. But because you guys enable our leadership, we never learn.

I don't think metrication or public transit are our concern, they are internal affairs.

Same story with healthcare. Worth noting that "universal" health care doesn't really exist anywhere.

I suspect the tax policy above could change soon. Our Foreign Secretary is a US citizen (despite attempting to give his citizenship up) who has complained repeatedly about being harassed by the IRS. If he remains in the job, which is somewhat doubtful, then expect him to try to change it at some point.



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30 Nov 2016, 4:14 pm

National soveirgnty matters, 'the rest of the world' has no jurisdiction over the US just as we shouldn't over them. We would be a lot better off if we started minding our own business instead of involving ourselves with everybody else. Putting TROTW on pedestal is ignorant, they're no better and have no moral high ground to stand on.