Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of al

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GnosticBishop
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26 Jul 2017, 12:25 pm

Can you understand the logic of Universality, in terms of all of us ending in heaven?

Hell is obviously an invention of the church. Universalists Gnostic Christianity and other Universalist Abrahamic cults do not see God as a loser of the souls he calls the light of the world.

The light of the world does not end in hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As you can see, especially those last two quotes, all are saved without a sacrifice.

The logic behind Universalism begins with knowing that all souls are created equal. It thus follows that God would treat all souls the same way and would all be given the best possible end due to us being the light of the world and equal. This follows natural law as well as heavenly law as those are never in conflict.

Look at judging, from God’s point of view, with an example of one we mostly think of as evil, Hitler.

Hitler would appear before God and as God examines Hitler’s life, he would see that all those Hitler interacted with, and who contributed to what Hitler became, would all have to share the blame and guilt for Hitler becoming the monster we think he was.

If you take that sound judging logic to it’s ultimate end, you will see the logic of either punishing all of us for what we have contributed to evil, or forgive us all for all being exactly what God, if he existed, created us to be.

Non-Universalist creeds, that have that imaginary religious creation called hell, are trying to appease their own blame and guilt by placing some souls above others even though God would have created us all equal. God unites while religions separate.

Do you believe God to be a Universalist God, or a God that is such a poor creator that he would have to send his perfectly created souls to eternal punishment instead of just curing them, if required?

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DL



techstepgenr8tion
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26 Jul 2017, 8:08 pm

In a way one could argue that absolutely anything could be true - heaven and hell or whatever else - because the universe really isn't beholden to us to make sense and most of what we argue for or against is informed by our own acquired sense of justice. Our culture, at least in the more intellectual and scientific corners, has expressed a nearly dogmatic certainty that we didn't exist before we were born and will cease to exist when we die. it makes sense that such people followed that chain of logic to insist that the universe is utterly devoid of consciousness outside of life with neurons and that everything came about by accident - where I might beg to differ with them is that their definitions and guideposts necessitated a Judao-Christian deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The first (nonexistence after death) doesn't have to necessitate the later (no deity) but I would at least have to agree with the emotional sentiment that a deity who created us to live once and cease to exist is an absurd concept as well.


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GnosticBishop
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27 Jul 2017, 1:11 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
In a way one could argue that absolutely anything could be true - heaven and hell or whatever else - because the universe really isn't beholden to us to make sense and most of what we argue for or against is informed by our own acquired sense of justice. Our culture, at least in the more intellectual and scientific corners, has expressed a nearly dogmatic certainty that we didn't exist before we were born and will cease to exist when we die. it makes sense that such people followed that chain of logic to insist that the universe is utterly devoid of consciousness outside of life with neurons and that everything came about by accident - where I might beg to differ with them is that their definitions and guideposts necessitated a Judao-Christian deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. The first (nonexistence after death) doesn't have to necessitate the later (no deity) but I would at least have to agree with the emotional sentiment that a deity who created us to live once and cease to exist is an absurd concept as well.


Not if God is like a human as that is what we do. We reproduce and then die out.

As to the supernatural; I think we should think as the ancients did before Christianity and Islam became idol worshiping religions. Basically that position says that nothing can be known of the supernatural. That is why God was said to be unknowable and unfathomable.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

If unknowable and unfathomable, then all that is said of God is speculative and unprovable nonsense.

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DL



GnosticBishop
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27 Jul 2017, 1:15 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
In a way one could argue that absolutely anything could be true.


I agree. In an endless universe all possibilities become probabilities from 0% to 100%.

True knowledge, logic and reason allows us to put the % number in.

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techstepgenr8tion
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28 Jul 2017, 12:49 am

GnosticBishop wrote:
Not if God is like a human as that is what we do. We reproduce and then die out.

As to the supernatural; I think we should think as the ancients did before Christianity and Islam became idol worshiping religions. Basically that position says that nothing can be known of the supernatural. That is why God was said to be unknowable and unfathomable.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

If unknowable and unfathomable, then all that is said of God is speculative and unprovable nonsense.

Regards
DL


I think there are clear grounds for dismissing suggestions that we'd be reporting to Room 39 of Pyongyang and Kim Jung Il for eternal judgment, or meeting a Jupiter-Carlito (half Zeus, half Carlito from NWO wrestling) who spits apple in the face of the uncool and sends them to eternal torment (at which point hell smells a lot like apple cider). Such egos demonstrably have about as much self-control as Trump, we would see 'supernatural' acts of blatant egotism and self-promotion happening all of the time - which we don't.

That said I don't think anyone knows what happens or doesn't happen when we die. The east might have had slightly better luck than the mainstream west at least but the idea pretty well stands that we might have some cogent guesses but that's pretty much all they are - no verities one way or another.


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GnosticBishop
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28 Jul 2017, 9:16 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Not if God is like a human as that is what we do. We reproduce and then die out.

As to the supernatural; I think we should think as the ancients did before Christianity and Islam became idol worshiping religions. Basically that position says that nothing can be known of the supernatural. That is why God was said to be unknowable and unfathomable.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

If unknowable and unfathomable, then all that is said of God is speculative and unprovable nonsense.

Regards
DL


I think there are clear grounds for dismissing suggestions that we'd be reporting to Room 39 of Pyongyang and Kim Jung Il for eternal judgment, or meeting a Jupiter-Carlito (half Zeus, half Carlito from NWO wrestling) who spits apple in the face of the uncool and sends them to eternal torment (at which point hell smells a lot like apple cider). Such egos demonstrably have about as much self-control as Trump, we would see 'supernatural' acts of blatant egotism and self-promotion happening all of the time - which we don't.

That said I don't think anyone knows what happens or doesn't happen when we die. The east might have had slightly better luck than the mainstream west at least but the idea pretty well stands that we might have some cogent guesses but that's pretty much all they are - no verities one way or another.


Now if people would stop lying about what the know and used proper language for what are their pure speculation, there would be a lot less fighting over what cannot or has not been proven to be real.

We seem to have enough real stuff to fight over so to fight for speculative nonsense is rather insane.

Regards
DL



techstepgenr8tion
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28 Jul 2017, 7:53 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:

Now if people would stop lying about what the know and used proper language for what are their pure speculation, there would be a lot less fighting over what cannot or has not been proven to be real.

We seem to have enough real stuff to fight over so to fight for speculative nonsense is rather insane.

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DL

Except that there seem to be a lot of people who bullheadedly fight for speculative nonsense who are perfectly oblivious that they're doing it too.


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29 Jul 2017, 8:13 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:

Now if people would stop lying about what the know and used proper language for what are their pure speculation, there would be a lot less fighting over what cannot or has not been proven to be real.

We seem to have enough real stuff to fight over so to fight for speculative nonsense is rather insane.

Regards
DL

Except that there seem to be a lot of people who bullheadedly fight for speculative nonsense who are perfectly oblivious that they're doing it too.


True, and without seeking within themselves to learn of themselves, they will remain in that ignorance.

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DL