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EzraS
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12 Oct 2019, 11:18 pm

There is plenty of Trump being like Hitler.

But what if Hitler had been like Trump?

Since Trump isn't invading other countries, doesn't have a gestapo, isn't murdering people in death camps etc, would Hitler be as infamous if he also had not done such things?

Some people might want to give abstract watered down versions of those things and apply them to Trump. But I am talking about those things in a totally literal exact equal sense, rather than in a kinda sorta way.



ASPartOfMe
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13 Oct 2019, 1:37 am

We would have never heard of him because he never would have become Chancellor because he would not have had Hillary as an opponent.


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naturalplastic
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13 Oct 2019, 1:58 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
We would have never heard of him because he never would have become Chancellor because he would not have had Hillary as an opponent.


Hillary beat Trump. by three million votes.

So if Trump had run against Hillary in 1933 Germany he would have lost, and never be heard of again. But since he didn't have Hillary as an opponent he DID win. And the rest is history.



EzraS
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13 Oct 2019, 2:15 am

I'm not asking how Trump would have done in an election with Hillary in 1933.

I'm asking what if Hitler had been like Trump as in the way Trump has been running things so far.



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13 Oct 2019, 2:49 am

Germany would have quickly recovered from the post-WWI depression and a strong national economy would have developed, like Japan after WWII. The struggle against the German communists would have been difficult, as it is now in the US, but they would eventually have been destroyed and the USSR would have been contained within its original borders. Soviet communism would have collapsed in the 1950s instead of the 1980s/90s, saving tens of millions of lives. SE Asia might or might not have gone communist under the influence of China, but there would have been no Western involvement. The nations of Europe would have flourished and would have avoided the Fabian socialism of the EU.


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magz
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13 Oct 2019, 3:26 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
We would have never heard of him because he never would have become Chancellor because he would not have had Hillary as an opponent.

Hitler got votes because people believed communists would be a grater evil.
Most likely they were at least a comparable evil.

It is important to take into account unstable societes of European interbellum. We have no idea how Trump would do if his nation were the post-WWI Germans, frustrated, impoverished and wanting revenge after a recently lost war that harmed them personally.


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13 Oct 2019, 3:58 am

EzraS wrote:
I'm asking what if Hitler had been like Trump as in the way Trump has been running things so far.


Well, so far Trump has done no genocides, so had Hitler been like what Trump has been so far, no genocides? No holocaust? Maybe racism would be a little rarer had the nazi ideology never risen as strongly as it did back then. Maybe even America would have less racism now without the nazi influence.



magz
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13 Oct 2019, 4:04 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Maybe even America would have less racism now without the nazi influence.

Unlikely.
Racism in America has roots in the early years of colonization and slavery of that time. It was long before any Nazi was born.

In the 1930s, being a racist wasn't considered evil at all, it was perfectly accepted. In 19th century, being non-racist was more unusual than being racist. Worldwide.

I would even risk a suspition that atrocities of the Nazi contributed to today's condemnation of racism.


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13 Oct 2019, 5:16 am

naturalplastic wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
We would have never heard of him because he never would have become Chancellor because he would not have had Hillary as an opponent.


Hillary beat Trump. by three million votes.

So if Trump had run against Hillary in 1933 Germany he would have lost, and never be heard of again. But since he didn't have Hillary as an opponent he DID win. And the rest is history.


U.S. presidential elections are held under the Electoral College system. There are many valid arguments against it, but that's the system, and therefore whoever wins a majority in the Electoral College is the winner of the election. This is why neither of those candidates spent much time campaigning in New York or California.

As for Germany, it also doesn't have, as such, a system where the winner is the winner of the popular vote. Hitler and the Nazis were only able to govern, initially, with the support of the smaller German National People's Party (DNVP). There have also been instances where the largest party is kept out of power due to a coalition being formed between smaller parties.



kraftiekortie
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13 Oct 2019, 5:25 am

He would have been stripped of his powers, probably by another Nazi.

Hitler was much smarter than Trump.

Come to think of it, Trump wouldn’t have become a leader of the Nazis. He might have been, at most, a business advisor. If he tried to get slick, he would have gotten his butt kicked.



naturalplastic
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13 Oct 2019, 6:49 am

Trump may not be Hitler. But the early Hitler was Trump. "Candidate Hitler" used the same style of lying demogogory and scapegoating to get elected as did candidate Trump.

Since we are only three years into the Trump regime we can only compare him to candidate Hitler plus the first couple of years of Hitler's actual rule (Hitler in 1936 circa). At that point Hitler was still Trump, and Trump is still ...well...Hitler.

Holding rallies, and doing what he can to undermine the rule of law.

Hitler's depth of infamy (the world war, and the Holocaust) was still years down the road.

Our hypothetical Trump-Hitler would probably be too incompentent to stay in power and to do the vast evil of the actual Hitler. But he might have been able to do enough damage to German democracy that he might have paved the way for a Hitler like successor who was truly evil.



DoTheTw1zt
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13 Oct 2019, 8:40 am

If Hitler were Trump he'd have a hotter wife.



kraftiekortie
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13 Oct 2019, 8:57 am

Germany is as in much worst shape in 1933 than the US is in now.

Candidate Trump wouldn’t had succeeded in Germany. I doubt that he would have even gotten as far as being high in the Nazi apparatus.



ASPartOfMe
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13 Oct 2019, 10:19 am

The Great Depression would have been even worse because instead of real wars he would have engaged in trade wars with every other country.


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magz
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13 Oct 2019, 10:20 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The Great Depression would have been even worse because instead of real wars he would have engaged in trade wars with every other country.

I hope it was irony.


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13 Oct 2019, 12:36 pm

Appreciate what you're trying to do, Ezra. I think, taking your question at a simplistic level, Hitler simply wouldn't be a notable figure.

However, I don't think that's actually a very good answer to your question. Surely we need to take historical factors into account? For example, President Trump wants to build a wall and a moat on the border with Mexico. Chancellor Trump would not have been able to do that, as Germany does not share a border with Mexico. President Trump changed the name of NAFTA, but Chancellor Trump couldn't do that as NAFTA didn't exist (and Germany is not a party to it).

So let's look at the differences between Hitler's rise to power and Trump's rise to power. Please bear in mind that I am by no means an expert and I'm sure our resident history buffs will be able to do much more with this:

Hitler took over a country that was an international black sheep. As punishment for Germany's role in WWI, the country was grossly weakened and humiliated. There wasn't really much of a conception of the protection of minority rights, the concept of human rights wasn't nearly as popular as it is today, and if Hitler said something racist he didn't have to put up with liberals on the internet comparing him to Hitler. Germany was a country looking to reassert itself on the international stage and take revenge against the countries that wronged it, as well as purging the "undesirables" in their own ranks. There was minimal resistance to Hitler tearing up the German constitution and blowing away all the checks and balances that should have restrained his power.

By contrast, Trump took power in very successful country. The USA is a country with a proud (if patchy) record of respecting human rights, including a constitution which demands equality. Although it is an imperfect democracy, it is nonetheless robust and contains a lot of checks and balances which are valued both by the establishment and, usually, by the population at large. There are restraints on presidential power. The country is rich and globally respected following eight years of excellent governance and leadership, and even with the departure of President Obama, still has inclusive institutions such as the Supreme Court and the Federal Reserve maintaining good governance. We have learned lessons from the actions of 20th century dictators and make it very difficult for similar takeovers of our countries today. If a presidential candidate talks of discriminating against immigrants on the grounds of religion then they get compared to Hitler.

The notion of transplanting Trump to 1930 Germany, or Hitler to 2016 America, breaks down because they'd fundamentally be different people if they lived in those times. I think the thought experiment tells us much more about history than it does about either individual.

With that very much in mind... if Trump was Chancellor of Germany from 1930 to 1934 and implemented equivalent policies to those he has implemented (or attempted to implement) in the US, then he would probably be remembered as the guy who bridged the gap between Heisenberg and Hitler. His "Jewish travel ban" and his migrant detention camps for example would be seen as a precursor to the death camps of the Nazis. His desire to tear up "unfair deals" surely would extend to the Treaty of Versailles and therefore to invasion of the Sudetenland and Poland, and remilitarisation of the Rhineland (causing tensions with France). However, I would really like to emphasise that I do not think this is a valid criticism of Trump's current policies. Mr Trump is a product of his time, and the deals he wants to tear up... actually the Iran deal is potentially comparable to the Treaty of Versailles. But... look, I'd much rather criticise Trump for who he is, rather than for what would have happened in a hypothetical situation where he was born in 1860s Berlin rather than 1940s New York.