Philosophical / Scientific Question regarding reality

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26 Mar 2009, 2:27 pm

Nobody picked up on this from another thread, so I'll ask explicitly:

From both scientific and philosophical points of view, what can "exist" other than our apparent physical universe?

Cambridge physicist Roger Penrose wrote:

Cambridge physicist Roger Penrose believes that mathematics suggests there is a world beyond the immediate, material one.

Can science explain all of life's meaning?

Ask yourself this question: would one plus one equal two even if I didn't think it? The answer is yes.

Would it equal two even if no-one thought it? Again, presumably, yes.

Would it equal two even if the universe didn't exist? That is more tricky to contemplate, but again, there are good grounds for a positive response.

Penrose, therefore, argues that there is what can be called a Platonic world beyond the material world that "contains" mathematics and other abstractions.

This idea of mathematics "existing" even if the universe did not exist is a compelling idea. It occurred to me some time ago and to see someone else expressing the same idea is intriguing.

What are others thoughts on this? What other "abstractions" could be said to "exist" even if there were no universe or anyone to "know" of them?

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Henriksson
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26 Mar 2009, 2:35 pm

I have to ask, how can something not be 'physical'? Even our mind is physical, a product of our brain.

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ruveyn
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26 Mar 2009, 2:41 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Nobody picked up on this from another thread, so I'll ask explicitly:

From both scientific and philosophical points of view, what can "exist" other than our apparent physical universe?

If you ask Plato, only The Forms exist. Our sensible universe is merely a distorted projection of The Forms.

If you ask Demokritos he would tell you only atoms in motion in space exist.

ruveyn

TallyMan
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26 Mar 2009, 2:47 pm

Henriksson wrote:

I have to ask, how can something not be 'physical'? Even our mind is physical, a product of our brain.

Mathematics is not composed of matter, it has no forces acting on it. It cannot be said to occupy somewhere in space or time. It has no physical cause. It has no beginning or end in time. Take Pythagoras's Theorem. The sum of the two sides at 90 degrees equals the square of the hypotenuse. This theorem is real independent of Pythagoras. It could be said to exist but I wouldn't say it was physical, it is an abstraction.

Thus even if the universe did not exist the theorem would still be real and said to "exist". So what other "abstractions" other than mathematics could reasonably be said to exist independent of a physical universe?

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Henriksson
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26 Mar 2009, 2:51 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

I have to ask, how can something not be 'physical'? Even our mind is physical, a product of our brain.

Well, I'd say Mathematics is a human construct. In a sense, it exists, in another sense, it doesn't exist. If there was no sentient life to use it, I'd have hard to see how it has any place, even if it is universal.

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TallyMan
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26 Mar 2009, 2:54 pm

Henriksson wrote:

Well, I'd say Mathematics is a human construct.

You are implying that mathematics is a human invention. I disagree, I would say humans have discovered mathematics. There is a huge difference.

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sketches
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26 Mar 2009, 2:55 pm

TallyMan, I'm pretty sure that what you're explaining are the concepts, theories, and the points of the "physical" ideas. I can't describe it myself, since I'm no physics expert, but here's a relevant quote from a site I just found from a Google search:

Quote:

Ideas are physical objects. (Construction)

a) Ideas are composed of energy and therefore exist in a relationship with energy;
b) Energy exists in a relationship with mass;
c) Mass exists in a relationship with matter;
d) Ideas exist in a relationship with mass via their relationship with energy;
e) Mass exists in a relationship with matter;
f) Ideas exist in a relationship with matter via their relationship with mass;
g) Matter exists in a relationship with one or more dimensions of height, width, depth and mass;
h) Ideas exist in a relationship with one or more dimensions of height, width, depth and mass;
i) Objects have a physical existence when they exist in a relationship with one or more dimensions of height, width, depth or mass;
j) Matter is a physical object;
k) An Idea is a physical object.

I'm new, so the forum won't let me post the link the quote came from. All I can tell you now is to do a Google search for "physical ideas."

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26 Mar 2009, 2:59 pm

sketches wrote:

a) Ideas are composed of energy and therefore exist in a relationship with energy;

Point (a) has nothing scientific about it, it sounds more like new age pseudo-science. Thus the final point (k) does not necessarily follow.

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Last edited by TallyMan on 26 Mar 2009, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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26 Mar 2009, 2:59 pm

The old proposal that fifty million monkeys at fifty million typewriters would eventually write all the literature that ever will be written because literature is merely different combinations of the letters and symbols on a typewriter would, in the Platonic sense, indicate that all human literature exists independent of the universe. It is a rather, to my mind, odd concept of existence.

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26 Mar 2009, 3:02 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Well, I'd say Mathematics is a human construct.

You are implying that mathematics is a human invention. I disagree, I would say humans have discovered mathematics. There is a huge difference.

[opinion]
Mathematics, as humans express it, is a human construct. If there is other intelligent life, then their expression of mathematics will be constructed according to their perceptive abilities.

Otherwise, The Mathematics - the singlularly purest form of mathematics that encompasses all other mathematical constructs - may have yet to be discovered.
[/opinion]

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26 Mar 2009, 3:02 pm

Sand wrote:

That is a good point and worth pondering rather than just randomly hitting my keyboard to give a hasty response. :wink:

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Henriksson
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26 Mar 2009, 3:04 pm

TallyMan wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Well, I'd say Mathematics is a human construct.

You are implying that mathematics is a human invention. I disagree, I would say humans have discovered mathematics. There is a huge difference.

All right, take 1 + 1 = 2. What makes a "1"? Say, adding one apple with another, making it two apples. But what makes an apple? It's made of molecules and stuff, surely the only thing that makes an entity is our subjective sorting of it as such.

And you mentioned Pythagoras Theorem. It's used on two-dimensional figures, which don't exist. When we draw a two-dimensional figure on a whiteboard, the paint used to draw with is, if looked upon closely, made up of three-dimensional atoms.

This leads me to believe that mathematics is something that, while absolute and objective, doesn't deal with reality.

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26 Mar 2009, 3:10 pm

There is a great confusion with mathematics and science. Science is constructed of validated observations frequently expressed in the language called mathematics. Mathematics, like any other language, can express relationships of science and it can also express relationships of universes that, as far as we know, do not exist. It is not reality. It is a language.

sketches
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26 Mar 2009, 3:11 pm

TallyMan wrote:

sketches wrote:

a) Ideas are composed of energy and therefore exist in a relationship with energy;

Point (a) has nothing scientific about it, it sounds more like new age pseudo-science. Thus the final point (k) does not necessarily follow.

Can you explain what goes on in a person's brain when they think? What do MRIs do? How is one able to watch brain activity, or tell that someone is dreaming, and what kind of dream they're having, or what kind of thoughts they're conducting? Brain cells, electric sparks, synapse -- are they all a myth? I just think you misunderstood me, that's all. As Henriksson said, the mind is physical, just as the brain is. Let me know if I'm getting the wrong idea about what you're saying, too.

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26 Mar 2009, 3:14 pm

Henriksson wrote:

You don't need to apply mathematics for it to be real. Sure you can say 1 apple, but mathematics can be thought of in pure terms without necessarily applying it to count physical things. Take for example i, the square root of minus one. You cannot physically produce an 'i' amount of anything, 'i' is an abstraction. However, somewhat ironically 'i' crops up in physics a lot and happily describes various parameters of formulae. The mathematics of complex numbers is 'real' (no pun intended).

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TallyMan
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26 Mar 2009, 3:24 pm

sketches wrote:

When a person has a thought, there is electrical and chemical activity in the brain. That activity has energy associated with it, but I'm talking about ... (I've forgotten what I was going to say :lol:

what was the point we were arguing? I'm going senile in my advancing years. :wink:

)

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