Obama trying to cause a 2nd Holocaust
Maybe the US and UK should've created a new Israel, back after the second World War, in their OWN countries, instead of recklessly barging in on Palestinian land. If they would've done that, we would never have this situation, today.
News flash, the Palestinians never had a country, they were supposed to get their own country just as Israel was. Just the other Arab countries stole their land.
Then we have the nice issue of so-called peace loving Palestinians calling for the repeat of a 7th Century slaughter of Jews.
Bet you didn't know that huh, that's cause the mainstream media deliberately neglected to report it.
They had their country in 1920. As a Class A Mandate, their sovereignty was internationally recognised. The Class A Mandates "... have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
Kraichgauer
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Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
You know nothing about Zionism. Zionism was a response in part to the accusation against Jews that they are nothing but rootless cosmopolitans. It was the age of nationalism, of "blood and soil" that people are connected through the soil. That means working the land. Jews were said to be just a bunch of burghers and urban professionals. The point of going to Palestine was to become peasants. They had strict laws - Jews do all the work from the top to the bottom. All by Jews. This idea that people flocked to Palestine to work for Jews is crazy because they weren't allowed!
This idea that there was a plot to thwart the Jews by arranging a race of Gentiles to Palestine to swamp the Jews is the silliest conspiracy theory and plays into this idea that everyone hates the Jews and wants to thwart them always.
No, no, you misunderstand. I was meaning that Arabs had arrived in Palestine also as settlers and property owners. It should be remembered, though, that preceding both groups were the Arabs living in the cities since before the population had been culturally turned into Arabs in the Dark Ages.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
You know nothing about Zionism. Zionism was a response in part to the accusation against Jews that they are nothing but rootless cosmopolitans. It was the age of nationalism, of "blood and soil" that people are connected through the soil. That means working the land. Jews were said to be just a bunch of burghers and urban professionals. The point of going to Palestine was to become peasants. They had strict laws - Jews do all the work from the top to the bottom. All by Jews. This idea that people flocked to Palestine to work for Jews is crazy because they weren't allowed!
This idea that there was a plot to thwart the Jews by arranging a race of Gentiles to Palestine to swamp the Jews is the silliest conspiracy theory and plays into this idea that everyone hates the Jews and wants to thwart them always.
No, no, you misunderstand. I was meaning that Arabs had arrived in Palestine also as settlers and property owners. It should be remembered, though, that preceding both groups were the Arabs living in the cities since before the population had been culturally turned into Arabs in the Dark Ages.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
You do realize that the Arab Muslims that didn't flee from Israel when it became a country are full Israeli citizens with all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
You know nothing about Zionism. Zionism was a response in part to the accusation against Jews that they are nothing but rootless cosmopolitans. It was the age of nationalism, of "blood and soil" that people are connected through the soil. That means working the land. Jews were said to be just a bunch of burghers and urban professionals. The point of going to Palestine was to become peasants. They had strict laws - Jews do all the work from the top to the bottom. All by Jews. This idea that people flocked to Palestine to work for Jews is crazy because they weren't allowed!
This idea that there was a plot to thwart the Jews by arranging a race of Gentiles to Palestine to swamp the Jews is the silliest conspiracy theory and plays into this idea that everyone hates the Jews and wants to thwart them always.
No, no, you misunderstand. I was meaning that Arabs had arrived in Palestine also as settlers and property owners. It should be remembered, though, that preceding both groups were the Arabs living in the cities since before the population had been culturally turned into Arabs in the Dark Ages.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
You do realize that the Arab Muslims that didn't flee from Israel when it became a country are full Israeli citizens with all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.
I'm absolutely aware of that.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well! So I tried to link a couple URLs to make it easy for people, but the site won't let me as yet. Still too new.... Just Google Palestinian/Israel Conflict, AND History of Israel. Wikipedia has Decent Spreads on both.....
After that I just had to say:
Some of you people really need to go read up about some history and facts before making wild assumptions on (apparently to me) sadly incomplete understandings of whats happened so far...... The first Search will provide a pretty comprehensive summary of the bigger points of the conflict since 1948, and the second describes in detail how Modern Israel came to be established, though you'll have to scroll through it to get to the more modern events..... I could summarize some of the salient points here, but it would honestly be better if you all just did some reading rather then firing off pointless assumptions and conclusions......
After that, getting back to the OP... Did it ever occur to you that a President's Foreign Policy might be more complicated then "You all need to do as I say! NOW!"? That perhaps hes saying something stronger then he really wants as a way of sending a greater message to the parties involved that change needs to occur?..... If you think Israel is ever going to accomplish Peace without *Some* compromise, you're nuts. If by saying they should go back to the 1968 borders, Israel gets the message and Compromises somewhere between current borders and the 1968 Borders and Peace Breaks out, then Obama accomplished something nobody else has.... Now, I rather doubt Obama's going to succeed in creating peace in the middle east, but accusing him of desiring a 2nd Holocaust is like saying the sky is falling after you have a bad reaction to an apple falling on your head......
Thank you for reading if you did...... Particularly if you go read up some Israeli history rather then just assuming or guessing....
After that I just had to say:
Some of you people really need to go read up about some history and facts before making wild assumptions on (apparently to me) sadly incomplete understandings of whats happened so far...... The first Search will provide a pretty comprehensive summary of the bigger points of the conflict since 1948, and the second describes in detail how Modern Israel came to be established, though you'll have to scroll through it to get to the more modern events..... I could summarize some of the salient points here, but it would honestly be better if you all just did some reading rather then firing off pointless assumptions and conclusions......
After that, getting back to the OP... Did it ever occur to you that a President's Foreign Policy might be more complicated then "You all need to do as I say! NOW!"? That perhaps hes saying something stronger then he really wants as a way of sending a greater message to the parties involved that change needs to occur?..... If you think Israel is ever going to accomplish Peace without *Some* compromise, you're nuts. If by saying they should go back to the 1968 borders, Israel gets the message and Compromises somewhere between current borders and the 1968 Borders and Peace Breaks out, then Obama accomplished something nobody else has.... Now, I rather doubt Obama's going to succeed in creating peace in the middle east, but accusing him of desiring a 2nd Holocaust is like saying the sky is falling after you have a bad reaction to an apple falling on your head......
Thank you for reading if you did...... Particularly if you go read up some Israeli history rather then just assuming or guessing....
Well Said
_________________
Guns don't kill people--Magic Missiles Do.
Sure, I agree that the 1967 borders mean death to Israel tactically, but I doubt that's what Obama intended to do. I also doubt Obama will be elected again ANYWAY. What people don't understand is that the palestinians already have a country. All what they need to do is solve their inner conflicts for real and stop blaming/ hating on Israel.
If you took a look at who Obama hangs with and associates with, you would realize that there is a good chance that the death of Israel is exactly what Obama is hoping for.
Kraichgauer
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Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
If you took a look at who Obama hangs with and associates with, you would realize that there is a good chance that the death of Israel is exactly what Obama is hoping for.
Back to guilt by association, huh? The professor you're referring to was a member of the faculty, and Obama, as a fellow educator, had to rub shoulders with him, as academic etiquette demands.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Since when? Palestine is a sovereign state with internationally recognized borders, and they control who comes and goes in their territory?
He sure hangs out with a lot of Jews for a guy who wants a "second Holocaust." What was the name of his chief of staff? Rahm Emmanuel? That ain't an Arab name, you know. And as an academic, attending Ivy League universities and teaching at University of Chicago, he has spent much of his life around Jewish colleagues.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
"The facts mam, just the facts." Joe Friday
The 1967 borders were defendable.
Since 1967 the return to borders has been the main point of peace talks.
It was a principal of post war order, no more Sudatenland, no taking chunks of other countries, for that path leads to larger wars.
In war, there are rules about Occupied Lands. One is you cannot displace the people who live there and replace them with your own to settle the land.
Saddam taking Kuwait was not tolerated. It started the first gulf war.
Borders must be respected. Expanding your borders, greater anything, was a leading cause of broader war.
50,000,000 dead, Europe in ruins, was bad for the economy. Rules were made to prevent the cycle of cause and war.
The complaint from Islamic lands is first, it was the last European Colony.
While Christian Europe killed Jews, they were tolerated in Islamic lands, as people of the book. They are all Semites.
Next, the very rules agreed on to prevent future wars were not applied to this post colonial European colony.
People were driven from their homes, people who had nothing to do with borders or wars, and want the right to return to homes and farms they had for many generations. This went on from 1948.
1967 might have been a war, the people who lost their lands were not involved, they were just between Egypt, Jorden, Sryia, and were overrun.
As non combatants, No one has any claim to their lands, due to fighting a third, forth, fifth party.
All International Law supports the right of people to return to their homes. It forbids an occuopier from taking the land of people outside their border, non combatants, displacing them, and replacing them with their own settlers.
The basis of this growing dispute, is the International Law was not applied, when the people who lost their homes and farms were Islamic.
The modern term is Ethnic Clensing, and it is a war crime, and crime against humanity.
The double standard of the West, rules for some, theft and murder for others, not equal justice under law, has spawned revenge by terror, same to you, responses.
Countries like Iran who have a fairly large Jewish population, hate the West for holding double standards. Their right to self rule, like many other countries, was replaced by the British and the CIA, imposing the Shah on them, who ruled by terror. Many were tortured and murdered because they might go Communist. A sure sign on the road to becoming Reds was they wanted to elect their own leaders, and chose their own form of government.
The West chose their leaders, and the brand of cattle prod used in questioning.
Longer term we have produced an Islamic world who would side with China, in the coming showdown. Iran sells them oil, Pakistan has offered a navel base, Afganistan gave them mining rights,
The West has stolen their lands, imposed dictators, armed his army and police, and denied them freedom and self rule. China does not get involved in domestic issues, just trade.
The West will slide into isolation as the rest of the world prospers.
We have no one to blame but ourselves. Blind Justice should treat all the same. When the least among you says, I was treated fairly, the law defended me, the world will support you.
Now I am going out top slaughter my neighbor, Papist Dogs, who have a swimming pool I deserve.
Since when? Palestine is a sovereign state with internationally recognized borders, and they control who comes and goes in their territory?
Believe me, they control who comes and goes in their territory. They have many many tunnels in which men, firearms and ordnance being smuggled into gaza. Sure, Palestine is not in any georgraphy book because it is not recognized yet I agree. But they have a state already if you visit gaza you see that many things of which define a state like population, government. Why they are not fully sovereign, as I said Israel had to take steps to defend itself. If for example someone would commit a fellony like killing or stealing, his freedom of movement obviously has to be limited (prison).
Since when? Palestine is a sovereign state with internationally recognized borders, and they control who comes and goes in their territory?
Believe me, they control who comes and goes in their territory. They have many many tunnels in which men, firearms and ordnance being smuggled into gaza. Sure, Palestine is not in any georgraphy book because it is not recognized yet I agree. But they have a state already if you visit gaza you see that many things of which define a state like population, government. Why they are not fully sovereign, as I said Israel had to take steps to defend itself. If for example someone would commit a fellony like killing or stealing, his freedom of movement obviously has to be limited (prison).
They do not have legal control over who comes and goes. What you are describing is undeniably an occupied state. They are not sovereign, and no one recognizes their state. The excuse of security does not change the fact that Palestine is not an independent state. I am not in the region; I cannot accurately judge the necessity of Israeli security measures, but to claim that the Palestinians already have a country is an outright lie. And then there is your somewhat offensive claim that it is acceptable to treat an entire "country" as convicted felons.
_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Since when? Palestine is a sovereign state with internationally recognized borders, and they control who comes and goes in their territory?
Believe me, they control who comes and goes in their territory. They have many many tunnels in which men, firearms and ordnance being smuggled into gaza. Sure, Palestine is not in any georgraphy book because it is not recognized yet I agree. But they have a state already if you visit gaza you see that many things of which define a state like population, government. Why they are not fully sovereign, as I said Israel had to take steps to defend itself. If for example someone would commit a fellony like killing or stealing, his freedom of movement obviously has to be limited (prison).
They do not have legal control over who comes and goes. What you are describing is undeniably an occupied state. They are not sovereign, and no one recognizes their state. The excuse of security does not change the fact that Palestine is not an independent state. I am not in the region; I cannot accurately judge the necessity of Israeli security measures, but to claim that the Palestinians already have a country is an outright lie. And then there is your somewhat offensive claim that it is acceptable to treat an entire "country" as convicted felons.
Either you misunderstood me, or you are deliberately derailing my post. First of all I didn't mean they have a country as if they have a 100%. As you said you are not from the region. I've been to places and the foundations are ALL there. You see villages, people, markets, malls, cars, mosques, politicians, whatever you except to see in any country. The only thing left is to make it official. The palestinians DON'T want a country, they want soverinity. The "country" itself is ALREADY THERE. That's a fact and that's what I meant from the first place. And no I don't compare all the palestinians to convicted fellons. What I really meant is this. I learned social economics. Now, weather there is the SLIGHTEST risk, for example, a guy commited a crime (w/o relation to palestine) there is a right to limit some of his rights. Now, since weapons are smuggles all over gaza, and that's a fact, there is a right to limit whoever comes and goes there because weapons could be hidden all around. Of course all I want is peace and end to the conflict and if you think otherwise it's your choice.
