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The_Face_of_Boo
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25 Jul 2023, 4:37 pm

Well, apparently humans f****d it up, climate researchers had been warning about this for years.

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/25/11898373 ... w-study-fi

What happened in Greece may only be the beginning:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/22/euro ... index.html



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 25 Jul 2023, 9:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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25 Jul 2023, 6:19 pm

Our goose is cooked.


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25 Jul 2023, 6:50 pm

Guess these peeps never been through a California Wildfire. Mountains and deserts there have some of the worstYou cannot breathe . But you can drive or walk or run away usually .Have seen some rough times while peoples homes were burning . 8O


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Mountain Goat
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25 Jul 2023, 7:11 pm

Here in the UK we have had fires. But not like recent years and here is why.
In the past it was tradition in certain colder months for hillsides with gorse or bracken to be set alight in controlled fires. This had been done for thousands of years, and no one really knew who started it. In the last two decades, to "Save the enviroment", this controlled burning was halted, and the first notable difference was that certain plants and flowers became on the endangered list because they only grew in an enviroment after a fire or where land had been cleared, with one or two plants needing their seeds to be burnt before they germinate.
Another rather "Odd" thing happened aftef the ban on controlled burning. When we had a heatwave and had a fire (Was going to happen somewhere), it became an out of control fire, where in the past, it was rare to have a fire out of control as forestries had built infire breaks (Now allowed to grow to "Save the enviroment") and these fires spread far further than they ever did. Why? Dry tinder from plants without fire breaks to prevent fires from spreading.
The people of long ago knew what they were doing and why they did it. The results of saving the enviroment = more fires than the past right in the hot summers, which means more long term harm than if they left things alone and let thefarmers and land owners carry on like they had done for years.

Big fires have always happened and been a risk. The issue today is that we are not making the land safe, and if we do, modern day methods of wood chipping just spread ready made fuel on the ground!


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ASPartOfMe
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25 Jul 2023, 7:35 pm

Water temperatures off Florida soar over 100 degrees, stunning experts

Quote:
On Monday, as much of the country stewed in bubbling heat, a boiling milestone was hit — a buoy in Florida registered a jaw-dropping 101.1 degrees Fahrenheit water temperature.

This was on the heels of the same buoy in Manatee Bay registering 100.2 degrees on Sunday. For perspective, the average hot tub temperature is 100-102 degrees F.

While the readings would've been considered a possible outlier or sensor error, surrounding buoys recorded similarly high temperatures, with 99.3 F at Murray Key and 98.4 F at Johnson Key.

Another reason why these water temperature readings are being taken seriously is the fact that experts have been tracking the exceptionally warm water temperature readings that have ranged from 92-97 degrees since early July.

For the majority of the month, an unusual weather pattern for the summer months for the region has been the driving factor. That pattern has featured a stagnant set-up fueled by a strong area of high pressure that has led to days of above average, and in many cases, record-setting air temperatures.

The pattern has also led to weaker than average trade winds. Trade winds usually produce southeast winds and a sea breeze for south Florida, which helps to keep the sea surface temperatures in check. Instead, winds have been out of the west and weak, allowing sea surface temperatures to heat up.

Still, despite a month of record-setting water temperatures already in the history books, Sunday and Monday's 100-degree water temperature reading stunned experts.

Factors that could have played a role in spiking the water temperature above 100 degrees include:

Air temperatures in the mid-to-upper 90s.

Weak winds across the region of less than 10 mph.

Strong sunlight hitting shallow water, which heats up faster than deep water.

Silty water leading to darker color, causing more absorption of sunlight and additional heating. Think of clear water vs. murky water as being similar to cement vs. asphalt. The darker the color, the more absorption and hotter the temperatures.

The water temperatures recorded Sunday and Monday would challenge the record for hottest sea surface temperature in the world. While official world water temperature records aren't kept, a 99.7 degree temperature recorded in Kuwait Bay is considered the world record at this time. Due to factors like proximity to land and the silty nature of the water, the temperatures recorded off Florida would have to go through an extensive verification process.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), ocean warming since 1991 doubles the size of the marine heat wave forecasted for September 2023.



Florida Keys coral reefs are already bleaching as water temperatures hit record highs, scientists say
Quote:
Some Florida Keys coral reefs are losing their color weeks earlier than normal this summer because of record-high water temperatures, meaning they are under stress and their health is potentially endangered, federal scientists said.

The corals should be vibrant and colorful this time of year, but are swiftly going white, said Katey Lesneski, research and monitoring coordinator for Mission: Iconic Reefs, which the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration launched to protect Florida coral reefs.

“The corals are pale, it looks like the color’s draining out,” said Lesneski, who has spent several days on the reefs over the last two weeks. “And some individuals are stark white. And we still have more to come.”

Scientists with NOAA this week raised their coral bleaching warning system to Alert Level 2 for the Keys, their highest heat stress level out of five. That level is reached when the average water surface temperature is about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit (1 degree Celsius) above the normal maximum for eight straight weeks.

Surface temperatures around the Keys have been averaging about 91 degrees (33 Celsius), well above the normal mid-July average of 85 degrees (29.5 Celsius), said Jacqueline De La Cour, operations manager for NOAA’s Coral Reef Watch program. Previous Alert Level 2s were reached in August, she said.

Coral reefs are made up of tiny organisms that link together. The reefs get their color from the algae that live inside them and are the corals’ food. When temperatures get too high, the coral expels the algae, making the reefs appear white or bleached. That doesn’t mean they are dead, but the corals can starve and are more susceptible to disease.

Andrew Bruckner, research coordinator at the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, said some coral reefs began showing the first signs of bleaching two weeks ago. Then in the last few days, some reefs lost all their color. That had never been recorded before Aug. 1. The peak for bleaching typically happens in late August or September.

“We are at least a month ahead of time, if not two months,” Bruckner said. “We’re not yet at the point where we are seeing any mortality ... from bleaching. It is still a minor number that are completely white, certain species, but it is much sooner than we expected.”

Still, forecasting what will happen the rest of the summer is hard, De La Cour and Bruckner said. While water temperatures could continue to spike — which could be devastating — a tropical storm or hurricane could churn the water and cool it down. Dusty air from the Sahara Desert moving across the Atlantic and settling over Florida could dampen the sun’s rays, lowering temperatures.

Because of climate change and other factors, the Keys waters have lost 80% to 90% of their coral over the last 50 years, Bruckner said. That affects not only marine life that depends on the reefs for survival, but also people — coral reefs are a natural buffer against storm surge from hurricanes and other storms. There is also an economic impact because tourism from fishing, scuba diving and snorkeling is heavily dependent on coral reefs.

“People get in the water, let’s fish, let’s dive — that’s why protecting Florida’s coral reef is so critical,” De La Cour said.


This is potentially very scary for the Hurricane season now upon us.


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26 Jul 2023, 9:38 am

yes the anove does not bode well for the Eastern seaboard,I think. Hurricaines. Warmer water evapoates easier, the Hurricaines will no doubt , will pick up More water..in a big way....And as people might know that hot air / water in some places cause expansion. Possibly causing water levels to rise, even further....Not so good for the Florida Keys...? :nerdy:


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roronoa79
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27 Jul 2023, 3:32 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Here in the UK we have had fires. But not like recent years and here is why.
In the past it was tradition in certain colder months for hillsides with gorse or bracken to be set alight in controlled fires. This had been done for thousands of years, and no one really knew who started it. In the last two decades, to "Save the enviroment", this controlled burning was halted, and the first notable difference was that certain plants and flowers became on the endangered list because they only grew in an enviroment after a fire or where land had been cleared, with one or two plants needing their seeds to be burnt before they germinate.
Another rather "Odd" thing happened aftef the ban on controlled burning. When we had a heatwave and had a fire (Was going to happen somewhere), it became an out of control fire, where in the past, it was rare to have a fire out of control as forestries had built infire breaks (Now allowed to grow to "Save the enviroment") and these fires spread far further than they ever did. Why? Dry tinder from plants without fire breaks to prevent fires from spreading.
The people of long ago knew what they were doing and why they did it. The results of saving the enviroment = more fires than the past right in the hot summers, which means more long term harm than if they left things alone and let thefarmers and land owners carry on like they had done for years.

Big fires have always happened and been a risk. The issue today is that we are not making the land safe, and if we do, modern day methods of wood chipping just spread ready made fuel on the ground!

At no point have I ever encountered an environmentalist expressing opposition to any and all controlled burns, though I have certainly encountered many conservatives who claim that that's all they ever hear from environmentalists.

People who actually study forests and work in forestry will tell you that it is "hot and bone-dry conditions, not environmental laws, that are making blazes more extreme".

Quote:
In his first tweet about this summer’s California wildfires, President Trump blamed environmental laws for making the blazes worse by preventing firefighters from using a “massive amount of readily available water.”

He said it’s “being diverted into the Pacific Ocean.”

The problem with that claim? The state’s firefighting agency said it’s had no complications accessing water, while fire experts said the state’s hot, dry and windy conditions are to blame for the infernos, not any water policy.


Quote:
Keith Gilless is a UC Berkeley professor of forest economics and chairman of the California Board of Forestry and Fire Protection.

He said he believes Trump is conflating two very different issues. There’s long been a conflict between farmers and environmental groups over how much water should go to crops versus rivers and lakes. But that fight hasn’t had any effect on firefighting.

“I think there’s some real confusion in the tweet,” Gilless said. “The issues over the allocation of water between environmental and agricultural interests have nothing to do with firefighting. And I’m not aware of any situation in which those conflicts have restricted the availability of water for firefighting purposes.”
Heat, dry conditions blamed

Gilless said the reason California’s wildfires are so destructive this year is the state’s “high heat, low relative humidity, high wind speeds and high fuel loading.”

He said climate change is making these conditions more frequent.

“California is going through a really heartbreaking fire season right now,” he added. “Environmental laws about water have nothing to do with it from my perspective.”

Gilless said Trump’s language about water “being diverted into the Pacific Ocean,” doesn’t make sense, as water naturally flows to the ocean. The argument about how much water should be captured before it gets to the ocean, again, is part of a different, unrelated debate.

The second portion of Trump’s tweet, that California “Must also tree clear to stop fire spreading!”, is also confusing. Forestry experts say thinning trees is a well-established practice that can reduce the severity of fires. But clearing trees is more commonly associated with commercial logging practices, not fire management.


I may be misinterpreting what you've said, but I can find no evidence of a complete, blanket ban on prescribed burnings in Britain. It has become much more tightly regulated than it once was, but that cannot be called a general ban. Environmentalist perspectives on prescribed burnings in Britain, and moor burning (muirburn), are also more complex than you suggest. This is a discussion that is muddled by corporate interests, politics, British cultural attitudes towards their native wilds, and the multi-million pound industry of grouse hunting which requires extensive land management of the moors that often fails to take environmental impact into account unless it effects the financial bottom line of grouse hunting estates/businesses.

Even if we set all that aside, virtually all arguments about forest/land management from the right are made in bad faith when you consider how constantly the right tries to slash funding for fire and conservation agencies, sell off public forest land for the benefit of corporate timber industry, and just generally treat forests as superfluous obstacles to economic development.


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27 Jul 2023, 3:39 pm

Would clearing brush be an option?


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27 Jul 2023, 4:01 pm

Putting a near complete halt on pumping CO2 into the atmosphere as well as redirecting ALL monies and resources wasted by the 1% and its attached military "security" power towards helping the People navigate the coming climate horrors is our ONLY option.


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28 Jul 2023, 11:38 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Would clearing brush be an option?

No.

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of acres of forests.. maybe more. Impossible - that's why Canada's forests are simply burning; there's nothing we can do about it. Nature is simply running it's course. However, there are regions that have been controlled by Indigenous peoples for thousands of years via controlled burns.. and fiiinally forest management government agencies are on the cusp of starting to learn some of these things and cooperate with Indigenous people to better manage forests via ancient methods of controlled burn schedules - but it may be too little too late.

mrpieceofwork wrote:
Putting a near complete halt on pumping CO2 into the atmosphere as well as redirecting ALL monies and resources wasted by the 1% and its attached military "security" power towards helping the People navigate the coming climate horrors is our ONLY option.

Yes.

For several years now climate nerds have said the only way to avert complete global catastrophe would be a mass mobilization of all people towards a common goal of climate stabilization via environmental remediation WW2 style. Just as the entire world focused all resources on war efforts - everything - food, manufacturing, all work etc.. if we do the same for the planet then we have a fighting chance at righting some of the wrongs we've done to it. I think we'd also need the cooperation of the greediest 1%, too.. not only for their money to pay the wages of boots on the ground, but for them to stop polluting so much. According to an article I read about Abigail Disney's protests, she says 50% of aviation emissions are from 1% of flyers - Billionaires and celebrities jet setting all over the world. Same is going to apply to the top 100 polluting corporations, etc. We need the worst offenders to completely cease all operations in order to have the biggest impact.


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