transgender student OKed for locker room access
21 Dec 2015, 2:25 pm
Omerik wrote:
I don't get the "transgender thing".
I don't get what it means to feel male, or female. I feel neither. I know I'm a male, biologically. So I "identify" as a male. I resent the idea of feeling male/female without having the "proper" genitals, because it means there is some way of being a "proper" male to begin with, other than having male genitals.
But I also get that there are people who struggle with gender identities. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong. As long as they don't expect me to truly understand as if it's a given, who cares.
I don't get what it means to feel male, or female. I feel neither. I know I'm a male, biologically. So I "identify" as a male. I resent the idea of feeling male/female without having the "proper" genitals, because it means there is some way of being a "proper" male to begin with, other than having male genitals.
But I also get that there are people who struggle with gender identities. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong. As long as they don't expect me to truly understand as if it's a given, who cares.
You are a nice fit for the biological models & data; if there is a spectrum of values there will likely be people who are in the middle. In terms of the neurology involved, that would likely present as not having a strongly sexed body identity either way. The thing I find really interesting is that statistically people on the AS/ASD spectrum(s) appear to have a neutral body identity more often than NT people. That's just the collected data, though. What I find fascinating is this: with a species like humans, how important is a strongly sexed body identity to socially bonding with other "men" or "women" (purposely including the social gender roles & identities by using those words).
_________________
“For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.”
―Carl Sagan
21 Dec 2015, 4:28 pm
Edenthiel wrote:
The thing I find really interesting is that statistically people on the AS/ASD spectrum(s) appear to have a neutral body identity more often than NT people. That's just the collected data, though. What I find fascinating is this: with a species like humans, how important is a strongly sexed body identity to socially bonding with other "men" or "women" (purposely including the social gender roles & identities by using those words).
That is an important question I think, and I hope to see it answered by scientific research in the near future. I certainly think it is a major factor in the difficulties I experience socialising with others, and always has been as far back as I can remember.
21 Dec 2015, 4:44 pm
Edenthiel wrote:
"You transgenders"??? What does that even mean grammatically? (hint: nothing, it's not an actual word)
From what I see transgender is the proper term (it even says so when you look up lbgt online), so transgenders seems to be the logical usage as a plural. I've posted it more than once in this thread and a few other threads on this or a similar subject. So color my ass surprised when someone comes along after all this time and says that I'm in the wrong, then someone else turns around and acts as if I should have known what I was doing in the first place.
_________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me. - River Tam (Firefly)
21 Dec 2015, 6:09 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
"You transgenders"??? What does that even mean grammatically? (hint: nothing, it's not an actual word)
From what I see transgender is the proper term (it even says so when you look up lbgt online), so transgenders seems to be the logical usage as a plural. I've posted it more than once in this thread and a few other threads on this or a similar subject. So color my ass surprised when someone comes along after all this time and says that I'm in the wrong, then someone else turns around and acts as if I should have known what I was doing in the first place.
No, it's "transgender people" or "transgender man" (if they have identified themselves to you as male) or "transgender woman" (if they have identified themselves to you as female)--"transgenders" is rude, just like calling black people "blacks" instead of "black people", or "black men and women". Using just the modifier, the adjective, by itself like a noun ("transgenders" instead of "transgender people" where "people" is the noun and "transgender" descibes that noun) is dehumanising and considered insensitive/rude by most. It's better not to use descriptors ("blacks", "females", "gays") as nouns in most cases when you are talking about groups of human beings.
21 Dec 2015, 11:25 pm
I see "Settling is losing" in the picture in the 2nd article. I wonder why that is? The people who have a legitimate legal right to use the room also have a legitimate reason for keeping this boy out of their locker room. It doesn't have anything to do with him being transgender, it has to do with his body. Everyone knows it including transgender people. They have tried to come to some sort of compromise to accommodate this boy, yet he and transgender people don't seem to want to listen to the concerns of these people because to settle = losing. So they'll bully their way into the locker room at all costs and damn the consequences and the people they are trampling over to get their way. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. Seems that if you want respect, you should first learn to give it. He isn't being discriminated against, the non transgender people who are now forced to share the locker room with him are having their rights violated in a big way though.
He shares the same form as I do. He can now take his body some place that I can't take mine. He now has a privilege that I do not share with him. Why should he be allowed to take his body some place that I can't take mine?
_________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me. - River Tam (Firefly)
21 Dec 2015, 11:48 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
I see "Settling is losing" in the picture in the 2nd article. I wonder why that is? The people who have a legitimate legal right to use the room also have a legitimate reason for keeping this boy out of their locker room. It doesn't have anything to do with him being transgender, it has to do with his body. Everyone knows it including transgender people. They have tried to come to some sort of compromise to accommodate this boy, yet he and transgender people don't seem to want to listen to the concerns of these people because to settle = losing. So they'll bully their way into the locker room at all costs and damn the consequences and the people they are trampling over to get their way. Pretty damn disrespectful if you ask me. Seems that if you want respect, you should first learn to give it. He isn't being discriminated against, the non transgender people who are now forced to share the locker room with him are having their rights violated in a big way though.
He shares the same form as I do. He can now take his body some place that I can't take mine. He now has a privilege that I do not share with him. Why should he be allowed to take his body some place that I can't take mine?
He shares the same form as I do. He can now take his body some place that I can't take mine. He now has a privilege that I do not share with him. Why should he be allowed to take his body some place that I can't take mine?
It's really quite rude and inconsiderate to insist on continuing to call her a boy. I begin to wonder if you are intentionally being hurtful and insensitive to the transgender autistic people and their families who use this forum for understanding and support and not to hear bigotry and ignorance spouted about them and their loved ones. Why are you doing this, what did transgender people ever do to you to deserve such disdain and contempt from you? You are coming off as a bully and if that's not your intention you should maybe reexamine your willingness to be respectful of other human beings when talking to them and apply that more to your discussions here.
22 Dec 2015, 12:28 am
RoadRatt let me put it like this, how would you like it if someone kept referring to you by the wrong gender? I can probably guess you would not like it.
I don't care if you are on the spectrum, show some respect to others. If someone identifies as a woman, call them by their preferred pronouns. Show them the same amount of respect that you would want, otherwise people will show you none.
22 Dec 2015, 7:06 am
To clarify, the one THEY have stated they are, in other words I am on their side of the argument.
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Tend to be blunt, tend to put my foot in my mouth, I am probably the smartest idiot you'll ever meet. And a bit of a cynic.
But I care. A lot.
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22 Dec 2015, 1:38 pm
Hi Edenthiel (and, all of you), Your comment caused me to have an a epiphany of sorts. I wonder where I fit on the spectrum. I am a heterosexual female (although, perhaps sexual preference doesn't play into this, so disregard that detail, if that is the case) and I identify as female. The only time I feel feminine in an purely feminine way, is when I am intimate with a man. I feel extremely feminine in those moments, otherwise, I don't feel one way or the other (that I am aware of). I have always felt more comfortable in the company of men, apart from one of my closest friends from my past (who is female and on the spectrum). I have NEVER felt comfortable wearing feminine clothes or footwear. The styles of clothing and footwear I am attracted to, are masculine in nature, and are warn by both men and women, however, are not considered feminine by societies standards/perceptions. The only difference in my clothes and footwear, is that they were made in (typical) women's sizes, and almost all of my clothes fit to my body, as I do not feel comfortable wearing loose-fitting clothes. My form-fitting clothing and the light-pink lipstick I wear, are the only things I find (typically) feminine, about preferences. I am so affected by the clothes/style of clothes I wear, that, I feel I have no sense of self, and feel powerless, if I wear anything outside of my comfort zone, which includes clothes which appear, or, feel feminine in nature. When I was still in school (I am currently, approx. your age), I would not wear anything even remotely feminine, on days that I was going to be taking a test. I had to feel 100% myself, in order to feel grounded enough, to get high marks, or even pass my tests (as strange as that might sound). I have owned 2 dresses and one skirt, in my entire lifetime, and those dresses were purchased for weddings I participated in. I just recently purchased a skirt for a particular occasion. I own two pair of Justin ropers, in both, black and brown, a pair of Doc Martins and a pair of running shoes. I wear Jeans, pants of other fabrics, dress shirts, long sleeved tees and sweaters. All of my clothes could be found in a Men's shop, if they were larger in size. I am literally unable to feel like 'me', if I wear anything (typically) feminine. I hope my input isn't too off-topic. I, too, am fascinated by things you have mentioned.
Edenthiel wrote:
Omerik wrote:
I don't get the "transgender thing".
I don't get what it means to feel male, or female. I feel neither. I know I'm a male, biologically. So I "identify" as a male. I resent the idea of feeling male/female without having the "proper" genitals, because it means there is some way of being a "proper" male to begin with, other than having male genitals.
But I also get that there are people who struggle with gender identities. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong. As long as they don't expect me to truly understand as if it's a given, who cares.
I don't get what it means to feel male, or female. I feel neither. I know I'm a male, biologically. So I "identify" as a male. I resent the idea of feeling male/female without having the "proper" genitals, because it means there is some way of being a "proper" male to begin with, other than having male genitals.
But I also get that there are people who struggle with gender identities. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong. As long as they don't expect me to truly understand as if it's a given, who cares.
You are a nice fit for the biological models & data; if there is a spectrum of values there will likely be people who are in the middle. In terms of the neurology involved, that would likely present as not having a strongly sexed body identity either way. The thing I find really interesting is that statistically people on the AS/ASD spectrum(s) appear to have a neutral body identity more often than NT people. That's just the collected data, though. What I find fascinating is this: with a species like humans, how important is a strongly sexed body identity to socially bonding with other "men" or "women" (purposely including the social gender roles & identities by using those words).
22 Dec 2015, 4:38 pm
wilburforce wrote:
It's really quite rude and inconsiderate to insist on continuing to call her a boy. I begin to wonder if you are intentionally being hurtful and insensitive to the transgender autistic people and their families who use this forum for understanding and support and not to hear bigotry and ignorance spouted about them and their loved ones. Why are you doing this, what did transgender people ever do to you to deserve such disdain and contempt from you? You are coming off as a bully and if that's not your intention you should maybe reexamine your willingness to be respectful of other human beings when talking to them and apply that more to your discussions here.
I'm not doing it "intentionally", I'm doing it because I can't call something that I see by something that it is not. I see a boy so he is a boy. I also won't be bullied into perpetuating transgender people's supposed belief. You have a right to believe what you want and so do I. Yet you people don't see it that way. I must bend my will to your way. That's not how life works, nor an intelligent conversation.
Some young whipper snapper called me a bigoted dinosaur in this thread, I laughed it off. The audacity of the enlightened ones, they want respect but won't show it themselves.
The non transgender people in that locker room said no for a good legitimate reason, yet this boy imposed his will over theirs.
[The analogy that was here was in violation of WP rules]
They said no and he went ahead and did it anyway...
_________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me. - River Tam (Firefly)
Last edited by Adamantium on 22 Dec 2015, 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.: content in violation of rules
22 Dec 2015, 6:56 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
It's really quite rude and inconsiderate to insist on continuing to call her a boy. I begin to wonder if you are intentionally being hurtful and insensitive to the transgender autistic people and their families who use this forum for understanding and support and not to hear bigotry and ignorance spouted about them and their loved ones. Why are you doing this, what did transgender people ever do to you to deserve such disdain and contempt from you? You are coming off as a bully and if that's not your intention you should maybe reexamine your willingness to be respectful of other human beings when talking to them and apply that more to your discussions here.
I'm not doing it "intentionally", I'm doing it because I can't call something that I see by something that it is not. I see a boy so he is a boy. I also won't be bullied into perpetuating transgender people's supposed belief. You have a right to believe what you want and so do I. Yet you people don't see it that way. I must bend my will to your way. That's not how life works, nor an intelligent conversation.
Some young whipper snapper called me a bigoted dinosaur in this thread, I laughed it off. The audacity of the enlightened ones, they want respect but won't show it themselves.
The non transgender people in that locker room said no for a good legitimate reason, yet this boy imposed his will over theirs. [message redacted] They said no and he went ahead and did it anyway...
Except what you believe isn't supported by facts or science, which have been provided for you in this thread but which you refused to take advantage of and inform yourself. Your opinion about transgender people is wrong and misinformed, and because of it you are contributing to discrimination against transgender people. If you don't want to inform yourself on the issue then don't insist on publicly commenting about it otherwise you will be called on how misinformed and bigoted you are being. You don't have a right to harass transgender people.
ETA: that stuff about [the edited portion of the message] was just way over the line. Now transgender people are rapists for wanting to use the appropriate changerooms?? [redacted] if you refuse to inform yourself about what it means to be transgender then you have no right to tell transgender people where they can and can't go.
Last edited by Adamantium on 22 Dec 2015, 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.: quoted rule violation and new personal attack.
22 Dec 2015, 7:02 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
It's really quite rude and inconsiderate to insist on continuing to call her a boy. I begin to wonder if you are intentionally being hurtful and insensitive to the transgender autistic people and their families who use this forum for understanding and support and not to hear bigotry and ignorance spouted about them and their loved ones. Why are you doing this, what did transgender people ever do to you to deserve such disdain and contempt from you? You are coming off as a bully and if that's not your intention you should maybe reexamine your willingness to be respectful of other human beings when talking to them and apply that more to your discussions here.
I'm not doing it "intentionally", I'm doing it because I can't call something that I see by something that it is not. I see a boy so he is a boy. I also won't be bullied into perpetuating transgender people's supposed belief. You have a right to believe what you want and so do I. Yet you people don't see it that way. I must bend my will to your way. That's not how life works, nor an intelligent conversation.
Some young whipper snapper called me a bigoted dinosaur in this thread, I laughed it off. The audacity of the enlightened ones, they want respect but won't show it themselves.
The non transgender people in that locker room said no for a good legitimate reason, yet this boy imposed his will over theirs. [Redacted] They said no and he went ahead and did it anyway...
If you don't trust us to inform you about what being transgender means--why don't you ask your doctor the next time you see them if transgender people really are the gender they identify as and not how you see them based on their genitals or however you judge what their gender might be? Surely you can trust your doctor to give you accurate information on whether transgender people are "real" or not and what the medical science tells us about what it is to be transgender.
ETA: did you even look at any of the links that edenthiel provided earlier in the thread?
ETA: I just realised that the info provided by edenthiel was actually a list of studies but not links to them. Sorry for the mistake. Still worth looking into and educating yourself, though.
Last edited by wilburforce on 22 Dec 2015, 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
22 Dec 2015, 7:15 pm
Moderating.
Please avoid name calling and hyperbolic, inflammatory analogies.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you want to share it here, please recall these simple rules:
Quote:
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Unacceptable content includes swearing; racist, sexist, homophobic language; behavior intended to provoke or belittle other members; violent or sexually demeaning content; sexual fetish; and discussion of excretory function. Posting graphic images or videos of people or animals being harmed is prohibited.
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
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1. Posting offensive language, comments, video, or images.
Unacceptable content includes swearing; racist, sexist, homophobic language; behavior intended to provoke or belittle other members; violent or sexually demeaning content; sexual fetish; and discussion of excretory function. Posting graphic images or videos of people or animals being harmed is prohibited.
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
3. Other inappropriate content and behavior prohibited on Wrong Planet:
This includes copyrighted material, serial codes, and posts made to promote a website, group or product, particularly if made repeatedly and without other participation in the WP community (spamming). This also includes discussion of locked topics, discussion of banned members and why they were banned and anything else that purposely causes conflict with other members.
Let the debate continue, but keep it civil.
22 Dec 2015, 9:50 pm
wilburforce wrote:
Except what you believe isn't supported by facts or science, which have been provided for you in this thread but which you refused to take advantage of and inform yourself. Your opinion about transgender people is wrong and misinformed, and because of it you are contributing to discrimination against transgender people. If you don't want to inform yourself on the issue then don't insist on publicly commenting about it otherwise you will be called on how misinformed and bigoted you are being. You don't have a right to harass transgender people.
ETA: that stuff about [the edited portion of the message] was just way over the line. Now transgender people are rapists for wanting to use the appropriate changerooms?? [redacted] if you refuse to inform yourself about what it means to be transgender then you have no right to tell transgender people where they can and can't go.
ETA: that stuff about [the edited portion of the message] was just way over the line. Now transgender people are rapists for wanting to use the appropriate changerooms?? [redacted] if you refuse to inform yourself about what it means to be transgender then you have no right to tell transgender people where they can and can't go.
You are misinformed and wrong in your thinking. I don't hate transgender people. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I hate you.
It seems that my analogy was against the rules. It was an accurate analogy, but I do apologize to the mod staff as I didn't mean to break the rules by using it.
Enough about me. We're suppose to be attacking the argument not the person.
_________________
No power in the 'verse can stop me. - River Tam (Firefly)
22 Dec 2015, 11:10 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Except what you believe isn't supported by facts or science, which have been provided for you in this thread but which you refused to take advantage of and inform yourself. Your opinion about transgender people is wrong and misinformed, and because of it you are contributing to discrimination against transgender people. If you don't want to inform yourself on the issue then don't insist on publicly commenting about it otherwise you will be called on how misinformed and bigoted you are being. You don't have a right to harass transgender people.
ETA: that stuff about [the edited portion of the message] was just way over the line. Now transgender people are rapists for wanting to use the appropriate changerooms?? [redacted] if you refuse to inform yourself about what it means to be transgender then you have no right to tell transgender people where they can and can't go.
ETA: that stuff about [the edited portion of the message] was just way over the line. Now transgender people are rapists for wanting to use the appropriate changerooms?? [redacted] if you refuse to inform yourself about what it means to be transgender then you have no right to tell transgender people where they can and can't go.
You are misinformed and wrong in your thinking. I don't hate transgender people. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I hate you.
It seems that my analogy was against the rules. It was an accurate analogy, but I do apologize to the mod staff as I didn't mean to break the rules by using it.
Enough about me. We're suppose to be attacking the argument not the person.
First of all, I am not transgender myself.
[REDACTED].
Quote:
Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
Kindly refrain from speculating on RoadRatt's motivation, psychology, character, etc. Attack the idea all you want, but not the person.
Last edited by Adamantium on 23 Dec 2015, 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.: rule violation
23 Dec 2015, 1:36 pm
RoadRatt wrote:
He shares the same form as I do.
Since it is likely she in on HRT... I did not realise you are yourself trans. Certainly, it is unlikely she has the form typical of males - the article did not say whether she was medically transitioning or not, but it doesn't seem likely that they would allow her to have a fully male form and participate to the degree that she does in sports, given the advantage testosterone would give her - so I presume then that you are likewise on estrogen and anti-androgens.
