Finnish millionaire gets $60,000 speeding ticket.....

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NobodyKnows
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31 Mar 2015, 11:24 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.



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01 Apr 2015, 6:25 am

NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.


You're missing the point entirely. Percentage based fines are about equality. $100 is different for the family with minimum wage earners than it is for the CEO of a multinational. $100 could be the weekly food budget for that family, $100 is half a haircut bill for the CEO. So if both groups get fined at that flat $100 we as a country are excessively punishing people for being poor and rewarding people for being wealthy. If the fines were percentage based both groups would be getting punished EQUALLY because they both are getting fined for the SAME percentage of their income. It would be equitable, fair, and actually deter more people, not just the poor ones.

As for the anti-government sentiment-- we live in a very open democracy (assuming you're from the US), and you have the ability to change the law a multitude of different ways: you can vote for candidates that share your opinions, you can lobby (or buy as it is) candidates outside your voting district, you can run for office yourself, you can petition the government for change, you can sue the government in court to force change, you can protest the government to force change. No other country in the history of man has given it's citizens that many opportunities to influence government. Too many people in the US don't understand how good we actually have it with regards to our democracy-- it's only been here ~220 years out of 8000 years of civilization, and the only democracy before us was ancient Greece and it wasn't even a quarter as open to the citizenry as ours.



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01 Apr 2015, 10:27 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
According to the article the guy made 7 million last year, a 60k fine is only .008 of his yearly income, not even a full percentage point. By comparison take a minimum wage earner in the US (~20k a year) and in my state 15-25mph over is a $215 fine, that's .01075 of the minimum wage earner's yearly income. Yes, he paid much less of a fine than the Finn did but it hurt the minimum wage earner's finances harder than it did the Finn.

The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent. Large corporations have used this loophole for years. Get caught with a faulty pipe that dumps oil, $20,000 fine, much cheaper than the half million or so it would take to insulate the pipe properly so it doesn't rupture in the first place. It's become a minor cost of doing business for some firms, which means that the fine has absolutely no effect. Now, say the fine was .05% of net earnings for the year, that could be several million for some companies-- I guarantee you they start following the law because it's too costly if they don't.


The entire point of a traffic citation is to put money in the pockets of government to mismanage. The deterrent thing is just an excuse.


If it's just an excuse how should they enforce laws? Or are you advocating for anarchy?

Yeah, right; anarchy with fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
Whatever....... :roll: :roll:


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01 Apr 2015, 10:31 am

Aristophanes wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.


You're missing the point entirely. Percentage based fines are about equality. $100 is different for the family with minimum wage earners than it is for the CEO of a multinational. $100 could be the weekly food budget for that family, $100 is half a haircut bill for the CEO. So if both groups get fined at that flat $100 we as a country are excessively punishing people for being poor and rewarding people for being wealthy. If the fines were percentage based both groups would be getting punished EQUALLY because they both are getting fined for the SAME percentage of their income. It would be equitable, fair, and actually deter more people, not just the poor ones.


Why not just make the ticked a down to earh amount instead of inciting class warfare? The points given for moving violations and increased insurance costs are penalty enough.


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01 Apr 2015, 10:59 am

Raptor wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.


You're missing the point entirely. Percentage based fines are about equality. $100 is different for the family with minimum wage earners than it is for the CEO of a multinational. $100 could be the weekly food budget for that family, $100 is half a haircut bill for the CEO. So if both groups get fined at that flat $100 we as a country are excessively punishing people for being poor and rewarding people for being wealthy. If the fines were percentage based both groups would be getting punished EQUALLY because they both are getting fined for the SAME percentage of their income. It would be equitable, fair, and actually deter more people, not just the poor ones.


Why not just make the ticked a down to earh amount instead of inciting class warfare? The points given for moving violations and increased insurance costs are penalty enough.


1. Equality isn't class warfare, it's the very fabric of our nation was built on, that's why. Unlike the faux-patriots out there that are only concerned with their own personal status/wealth/whatever, I actually believe in the PRINCIPLES the United States was built on and I'll respect the sacrifices the men and women of this country have made to bring those principles to life and I will fight for those principles, EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of how unpopular the message may be. Fact of the matter is we live in a greedy narcissistic culture with distorted morals, a culture that doesn't understand that sometimes you have to make personal sacrifices for the greater good. It's lazy, selfish, and eventually will run a nation into the ground (read up on how Rome fell, you read enough you'll find barbarians where only a symptom of the underlying disease). For the record I have no problem with people pursuing wealth, pursue as much as you want-- but I am against that wealth giving you unequal and unfair advantages within the law.

2. Increased insurance is only if you buy a more expensive car, if you bought a less expensive car you'd pay less in insurance since it's based on what the insurance company will have to pay out should you have a claim. More expensive car = higher payout = higher insurance rate. No one's forcing you to buy an expensive car with all the added expenses it incurs-- that's free choice, another hallmark of our nation.

3. On a side note, it seems your ok with a private institution charging more, and I say if it's good enough for business it should be good enough for government-- nothing more satisfying than consistency in ideas. I trust the government 10x more than I do a private business because at the end of the day, as a voter, I have a say in the government and I have absolutely none with a private business.



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01 Apr 2015, 11:39 am

Aristophanes wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.


You're missing the point entirely. Percentage based fines are about equality.


If that's the point, it's one that you didn't make. Reread your post.

Your argument about deterrence is correct. I'm just curious how far you're willing to take it.



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01 Apr 2015, 11:57 am

Aristophanes wrote:
1. Equality isn't class warfare, it's the very fabric of our nation was built on, that's why. Unlike the faux-patriots out there that are only concerned with their own personal status/wealth/whatever, I actually believe in the PRINCIPLES the United States was built on and I'll respect the sacrifices the men and women of this country have made to bring those principles to life and I will fight for those principles, EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of how unpopular the message may be. Fact of the matter is we live in a greedy narcissistic culture with distorted morals, a culture that doesn't understand that sometimes you have to make personal sacrifices for the greater good. It's lazy, selfish, and eventually will run a nation into the ground

I responded to most of the above in an earlier post:

"Several years ago I quit a tech-job because we weren't doing as much innovative work as we'd done when I started. I wanted to help people, not coast on past achievements.

So I took a non-profit job that paid about $1,000/month. I accepted that because (a) it came with health coverage, and (b) it was an opportunity to refresh my rusty organizing skills and get my feet on the ground in a new state. I also had savings, which I'd built up while I was in school by working part time and not blowing the money.

Compare that to my co-workers at the non-profit: They were mostly college students or new graduates. They spent much more than I did on cars, rent, going to bars, impressing mates or pampering themselves.

They seemed to resent that I could afford to go out for lunch, but for years they'd taken more out of society that I had. They were dating and going to clubs while I was working on the weekends. They demanded "cool" jobs while I was working in a factory. They wouldn't have even talked to most of my friends because I hung out with people who had skills (which they found tiresome).

In every way they were aggressive and haughty: They wrote people off for not being "cool" enough, even when those people put much more into society than they did. Then they cried foul anytime someone didn't share with them.

When I stopped by the "Occupy" encampment in Minneapolis, the kids there had nicer camping gear than I did, including never-used $300 bivy-sacks.

If Democrats would spend money on people who are *actually poor*, I would listen. They won't."

Quote:
(read up on how Rome fell, you read enough you'll find barbarians where only a symptom of the underlying disease).

If you'd done that, you would know that Nero won on a tax-the-rich platform, and that Claudius was a sensualist who would make any East Coast Democrat smile.

Quote:
2. Increased insurance is only if you buy a more expensive car, if you bought a less expensive car you'd pay less in insurance since it's based on what the insurance company will have to pay out should you have a claim. More expensive car = higher payout = higher insurance rate. No one's forcing you to buy an expensive car with all the added expenses it incurs-- that's free choice, another hallmark of our nation.

That applies to collision, but not liability.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:02 pm

Raptor wrote:
Getting fined 60k for doing 64 in a 50 zone is highway robbery no matter how much the offender is worth.


The obvious problem is that a fine of $100 may mean nothing to a millionaire, but for others it might be the difference in whether or not they can afford to feed their family a nutritious meal. And then couple that with the fact that the wealthy are generally less likely to be stopped than the poor and young for minor tickets.

Because of that, I have no problem with tying fines to income.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:02 pm

NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
NobodyKnows wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
The entire point of a fine is to deter people. If the fine is so low that it has no effect on a person then it's not a deterrent.


We could take that farther: If the crime is unlikely to be noticed, then the penalty needs to be stiffer to deter people because they know that they'll get away with it most of the time. That sounds like an argument for draconian three-strikes laws... Heck, who am I kidding? Let's make it one-strike. That'll really deter those government-disrespecting scoundrels.


You're missing the point entirely. Percentage based fines are about equality.


If that's the point, it's one that you didn't make. Reread your post.

Your argument about deterrence is correct. I'm just curious how far you're willing to take it.


No I didn't state it in a specific manner, but the implication in the post was equality. I apologize for not being clear.

As for deterrence, I think deterrence only works in a few cases, almost none when it comes to the law. That being said, the government's only way to enforce laws and deter people from breaking said laws is through fines and jail. Without those the law has no "teeth" so to speak and the law becomes meaningless. My problem is that flat rate fines only have "teeth" for certain demographics of people, namely the exceptionally poor. What I don't accept is the legal system treating people differently based on their economic status, a flat percentage eliminates that-- everyone would pay the same percentage, just like taxes (if taxes were all the same percentage, which again, unfortunately they are not). No one should be above the law, and our current system basically allows the wealthy to pay a small fee (for their income) to bypass the system. Jail time on the other hand is different, 1 year in jail is the same amount time for a wealthy person as it is for a poor person, there is no difference and I find that equitable. That doesn't mean everything should be jail time, a system of fairness to all demographics is all I'm advocating for.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:06 pm

Protogenoi wrote:
genesis529 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Speeding tickets are usually way too expensive as it is and just about everyone speeds at least once in a while. Why not lower the cost to a more reasonable and affordable figure instead of sucking blood from people just to squander like they do with tax revenues.


Or just get rid of speeding tickets and the speed limit altogether.

Yeah, make the speeds be recommended, but not enforced.


In many cases, if one is driving the speed limit and something happens such as someone steps out in front of them, they will not be prosecuted because they are driving the speed limit or less. If we do away with speed limits, then there would be no such limits on liability at lower speeds and you would be far more likely to be prosecuted.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:09 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Get caught with a faulty pipe that dumps oil, $20,000 fine, much cheaper than the half million or so it would take to insulate the pipe properly so it doesn't rupture in the first place.
Insulation? Maybe for house pipes. Not for oil and gas lines.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:19 pm

eric76 wrote:
Protogenoi wrote:
genesis529 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Speeding tickets are usually way too expensive as it is and just about everyone speeds at least once in a while. Why not lower the cost to a more reasonable and affordable figure instead of sucking blood from people just to squander like they do with tax revenues.


Or just get rid of speeding tickets and the speed limit altogether.

Yeah, make the speeds be recommended, but not enforced.


In many cases, if one is driving the speed limit and something happens such as someone steps out in front of them, they will not be prosecuted because they are driving the speed limit or less. If we do away with speed limits, then there would be no such limits on liability at lower speeds and you would be far more likely to be prosecuted.


I would assume that if they got rid of the speed limit they would also change the other laws to reflect that.
Another way they reduce the speed here is by speed bumps and by making the roads so bad you can't really drive at high speeds.



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01 Apr 2015, 12:59 pm

trollcatman wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Protogenoi wrote:
genesis529 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Speeding tickets are usually way too expensive as it is and just about everyone speeds at least once in a while. Why not lower the cost to a more reasonable and affordable figure instead of sucking blood from people just to squander like they do with tax revenues.


Or just get rid of speeding tickets and the speed limit altogether.

Yeah, make the speeds be recommended, but not enforced.


In many cases, if one is driving the speed limit and something happens such as someone steps out in front of them, they will not be prosecuted because they are driving the speed limit or less. If we do away with speed limits, then there would be no such limits on liability at lower speeds and you would be far more likely to be prosecuted.


I would assume that if they got rid of the speed limit they would also change the other laws to reflect that.
Another way they reduce the speed here is by speed bumps and by making the roads so bad you can't really drive at high speeds.


The small town of Estelline, Texas is widely known as a speed trap. The reality is that there is a major highway, Texas 287, coming through town and not much town to convince people to slow down. If it weren't for the speed enforcement, there would be multiple instances of people driving through town at full highway speeds. They aren't writing tickets to raise money, they are writing tickets to slow people down to make it safe for them as well as for the local townspeople crossing the street on foot or pulling out from side streets onto the highway. The reality is that Estelline, Texas is hardly a speed trap which is typically considered to be a place where the police write tickets to generate revenue.

A few years ago, the local police chief told my younger brother that they don't have to hide. They sit out there on the highway in plain sight and still can't keep up with the speeders.

A few years ago, Texas passed some legislation that permitted a town to keep only a certain portion of their ticket revenue. If it was all about generating revenue, Estelline could easily maximize their revenue in a month or two each year. So by enforcing speed limits all year, they might be spending more the other ten or eleven months to enforce the speed limits than they are permitted to keep of their revenue.



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01 Apr 2015, 10:29 pm

To the comment earlier on German highways: Well yeah. I don't often come by an accident caused by speeding. I drove on the autobahn today and got into a traffic jam because of a burning car (cause: electric malfunction). Or you might find tipped over trucks (trucks here are only allowed to drive 90 km/h). Usually I do about 150 km/h on the highways here in Germany, because I feel comfortable at that speed. Anything over is only if the highway is straight and empty. But most of the Americans stationed here only do like 110 km/h (65 mph) when the recommended speed is 130 km/h and then they hog the damn left lane which is made for faster traffic only (you aren't allowed to pass on the right here).



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02 Apr 2015, 10:57 am

eric76 wrote:
A few years ago, Texas passed some legislation that permitted a town to keep only a certain portion of their ticket revenue. If it was all about generating revenue, Estelline could easily maximize their revenue in a month or two each year. So by enforcing speed limits all year, they might be spending more the other ten or eleven months to enforce the speed limits than they are permitted to keep of their revenue.


Hmmm..... I don't get that part. If they can only keep a portion of their revenue----let's say 80%----wouldn't that start-over again, from zero, every month, and then they would still profit? If they made 10,000 dollars in June, kept $8,000; then, in July, they made 10,000, kept 8,000; then, in August..... and so on..... They would be making a profit EVERY month, no? Or, is it that they can only profit so much, in a YEAR? Then, I could totally see your point, and that seems really unfair!

Also, who gets the money, after they reach their cap----I'm guessing, the FEDS?



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02 Apr 2015, 12:32 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
eric76 wrote:
A few years ago, Texas passed some legislation that permitted a town to keep only a certain portion of their ticket revenue. If it was all about generating revenue, Estelline could easily maximize their revenue in a month or two each year. So by enforcing speed limits all year, they might be spending more the other ten or eleven months to enforce the speed limits than they are permitted to keep of their revenue.


Hmmm..... I don't get that part. If they can only keep a portion of their revenue----let's say 80%----wouldn't that start-over again, from zero, every month, and then they would still profit? If they made 10,000 dollars in June, kept $8,000; then, in July, they made 10,000, kept 8,000; then, in August..... and so on..... They would be making a profit EVERY month, no? Or, is it that they can only profit so much, in a YEAR? Then, I could totally see your point, and that seems really unfair!

Also, who gets the money, after they reach their cap----I'm guessing, the FEDS?


In Texas, the limit on ticket revenue is a percentage of the town's total revenues from the previous year. Once that is exceeded, the rest goes to the State of Texas for the rest of the year.

Not knowing the precise amount, I did a quick Google search without even mentioning Estelline and found this from http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-613081:
Quote:
Estelline has a one man police force whose main purpose is to fill city coffers. The Officer writes about 20 tickets a day to drivers who fail to slow as the wide, flat four-lane leaves the Panhandle's red-dirt cotton fields and enters this farm town of 168 residents about a hundred miles southeast of Amarillo.

Despite a 1975 Texas law aimed at curbing speed traps, Estelline has been able to mine nearly its entire budget from motorists who fail to slow from 70 mph to 50 mph when they hit the city limits.

"We follow the state law," said Estelline Mayor Rick Manley, whose current budget anticipates it will take in $320,000 in traffic fines this year. The town keeps some of the money but by law will have to give a chunk to the state.

...

Under the law, which applies to towns of fewer than 5,000, nearly all traffic fines that exceed 30 percent of a city's previous year's total general revenues must be paid to the state. For instance, a town that takes in total revenues of $100,000 this year can keep only $30,000 in traffic fines next year, plus $1 for each ticket over the cap.

...

This year, Estelline will keep about $110,000 in highway fines, said the municipal judge who also at the time was working temporarily as city clerk.

...

We're not getting rich here," said the judge. "We won't be retiring from this." It costs about $126,000 a year to run its one-man police force and city court, including the Peace officers $50,000 a year salary. "It's hard if you're a small town finding someone who will work like our Officer," said Manley, the mayor. "A lot of the guys will just sit around by the coffee pot. Our Officer will work six days a week."

...

The state receives $71.50 for costs and fees on every ticket; drivers who opt to take a driving safety course pay no fine; and truckers who are ticketed often hire a lawyer and appeal to county courts, which keep any fines paid,