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The Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

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auntblabby
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08 Feb 2021, 6:10 pm

what it all boils down to, is the right in amuuurica doesn't even think the left has any right to exist.



ezbzbfcg2
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08 Feb 2021, 6:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
So, are you saying Trump would have won had it not been for this conspiracy between organized labor and corporations?


Just for a moment, try your hardest, forget about the actual candidates.

Now, have you ever worked in a union job? The union officials who "represent" the laborers are NOT laborers themselves and are more likely to hobnob with management. This happens in small companies that have a labor union. Now, multiply that ten-fold on a national scale.

The Chamber of Commerce is a lobby group for Big Business. The AFL-CIO is a glorified corporate entity. It's employees see themselves as part of the elite. Like a lawyer who you've hired to defend you, they can be of service at times to laborers. But remember, your lawyer is still part of the same legalsphere as your opponent's lawyer and the judge. Your lawyer doesn't identify with YOU, and the AFL-CIO doesn't really identify with the laborers themselves.

Here's what's most troubling from the article:

Quote:
They got states to change voting systems and laws and helped secure hundreds of millions in public and private funding. They fended off voter-suppression lawsuits, recruited armies of poll workers and got millions of people to vote by mail for the first time.


Essentially, this is not democracy. It's big corporate interest groups with their own agendas colluding to influence and institute public policy. PACs/lobbys, etc and not PEOPLE and government are enacting these supposed "fail-safes." And that should be troubling to anyone who believes in the democratic process.



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08 Feb 2021, 6:37 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So, are you saying Trump would have won had it not been for this conspiracy between organized labor and corporations?


Just for a moment, try your hardest, forget about the actual candidates.

Now, have you ever worked in a union job? The union officials who "represent" the laborers are NOT laborers themselves and are more likely to hobnob with management. This happens in small companies that have a labor union. Now, multiply that ten-fold on a national scale.

The Chamber of Commerce is a lobby group for Big Business. The AFL-CIO is a glorified corporate entity. It's employees see themselves as part of the elite. Like a lawyer who you've hired to defend you, they can be of service at times to laborers. But remember, your lawyer is still part of the same legalsphere as your opponent's lawyer and the judge. Your lawyer doesn't identify with YOU, and the AFL-CIO doesn't really identify with the laborers themselves.

Here's what's most troubling from the article:

Quote:
They got states to change voting systems and laws and helped secure hundreds of millions in public and private funding. They fended off voter-suppression lawsuits, recruited armies of poll workers and got millions of people to vote by mail for the first time.


Essentially, this is not democracy. It's big corporate interest groups with their own agendas colluding to influence and institute public policy. PACs/lobbys, etc and not PEOPLE and government are enacting these supposed "fail-safes." And that should be troubling to anyone who believes in the democratic process.


I grew up in a union household. My dad was a union grievance man (shop steward), affiliated with the Steel Workers of America, which is part of the AFL-CIO. Thanks to the union, my dad was able to bring home a big paycheck with benefits, so that my mom didn't have to work, and I was spoiled rotten as we enjoyed a middle class lifestyle. I have no beef with unions.
Donald Trump was certainly not the populist leader of the "forgotten man" that he promoted himself as. He was the epitome of the corporate monstrosity you wrote of, and he was it's number one defender. Worse, he admired totalitarian strongmen around the globe who are turning back the wave of democracy. Who knows what we may have actually avoided by kicking Trump out of office. I have never second guessed my vote for Biden.
I don't know if that answers anything for you, but that's my thoughts, just the same.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


ezbzbfcg2
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08 Feb 2021, 7:26 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I grew up in a union household. My dad was a union grievance man (shop steward), affiliated with the Steel Workers of America, which is part of the AFL-CIO. Thanks to the union, my dad was able to bring home a big paycheck with benefits, so that my mom didn't have to work, and I was spoiled rotten as we enjoyed a middle class lifestyle. I have no beef with unions.

Your father was an actual laborer who acted as liaison (shop steward) between the union and his fellow workers. I'm talking about the Union representatives, all corporate men who are essentially stewards between the non-union managers and the workers. Unions often do offer great blanket benefits to members. I'm talking one-on-one, the reps are NOT laborers and don't see themselves as such.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Donald Trump was certainly not the populist leader of the "forgotten man" that he promoted himself as. He was the epitome of the corporate monstrosity you wrote of, and he was it's number one defender. Worse, he admired totalitarian strongmen around the globe who are turning back the wave of democracy. Who knows what we may have actually avoided by kicking Trump out of office. I have never second guessed my vote for Biden.

I don't know if that answers anything for you, but that's my thoughts, just the same.

I had asked you to try and put aside the candidates themselves, just for a moment, and look at the greater implications of corporate interest lobbies determining legislative policy and how this is not how a democratic republic should operate EVEN IF you're happy that your guy won or lost. Forget about your guy just for a moment and try to understand why this is troubling.



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08 Feb 2021, 7:36 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I grew up in a union household. My dad was a union grievance man (shop steward), affiliated with the Steel Workers of America, which is part of the AFL-CIO. Thanks to the union, my dad was able to bring home a big paycheck with benefits, so that my mom didn't have to work, and I was spoiled rotten as we enjoyed a middle class lifestyle. I have no beef with unions.

Your father was an actual laborer who acted as liaison (shop steward) between the union and his fellow workers. I'm talking about the Union representatives, all corporate men who are essentially stewards between the non-union managers and the workers. Unions often do offer great blanket benefits to members. I'm talking one-on-one, the reps are NOT laborers and don't see themselves as such.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Donald Trump was certainly not the populist leader of the "forgotten man" that he promoted himself as. He was the epitome of the corporate monstrosity you wrote of, and he was it's number one defender. Worse, he admired totalitarian strongmen around the globe who are turning back the wave of democracy. Who knows what we may have actually avoided by kicking Trump out of office. I have never second guessed my vote for Biden.

I don't know if that answers anything for you, but that's my thoughts, just the same.

I had asked you to try and put aside the candidates themselves, just for a moment, and look at the greater implications of corporate interest lobbies determining legislative policy and how this is not how a democratic republic should operate EVEN IF you're happy that your guy won or lost. Forget about your guy just for a moment and try to understand why this is troubling.


Now unions are bad because they are in bed with management??? I thought they were socialist or whatever the prajorative of the day is. With all the right-to-work laws passed, you are going to have to actually support that claim. Amazon is fighting unionization right now. The anti-union sentiment is this country is simply destructive to the workers.



ezbzbfcg2
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08 Feb 2021, 7:51 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Now unions are bad because they are in bed with management??? I thought they were socialist or whatever the prajorative of the day is. With all the right-to-work laws passed, you are going to have to actually support that claim. Amazon is fighting unionization right now. The anti-union sentiment is this country is simply destructive to the workers.


Oh, hey, it's you again. I hope you read what I wrote here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=394357&p=8713293#p8713293

I try to talk to people with different views. But when talking to someone who isn't grounded, it can get pointless. But I'll try again: Nothing you're saying here has anything to do with what I'm asking. Unions as institutions do offer benefits to workers. Amazon workers probably would benefit from a union. Nothing at all to do with my question to another member.

What we're seeing in this scenario in the TIME article is business interests controlling politics. Big Business + Union suits (not actual laborers) colluding and meddling in legislating the democratic process. That's troubling, even if your guy won and you're happy with the results.



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08 Feb 2021, 7:59 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Now unions are bad because they are in bed with management??? I thought they were socialist or whatever the prajorative of the day is. With all the right-to-work laws passed, you are going to have to actually support that claim. Amazon is fighting unionization right now. The anti-union sentiment is this country is simply destructive to the workers.


Oh, hey, it's you again. I hope you read what I wrote here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=394357&p=8713293#p8713293

I try to talk to people with different views. But when talking to someone who isn't grounded, it can get pointless. But I'll try again: Nothing you're saying here has anything to do with what I'm asking. Unions as institutions do offer benefits to workers. Amazon workers probably would benefit from a union. Nothing at all to do with my question to another member.

What we're seeing in this scenario in the TIME article is business interests controlling politics. Big Business + Union suits (not actual laborers) colluding and meddling in legislating the democratic process. That's troubling, even if your guy won and you're happy with the results.


Yup, interest groups have been influencing the political process ever since there was a political process. Certainly business has had a huge influence in our political system. Where you lose me is that now unions are working with big business that are destroying unions through anti-union legislation. Hey, if you have proof unions are support big business to destroy union power, I am happy to see it.



ezbzbfcg2
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08 Feb 2021, 8:10 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Where you lose me is that now unions are working with big business that are destroying unions through anti-union legislation. Hey, if you have proof unions are support big business to destroy union power, I am happy to see it.


I was responding to a point made by another user regarding the conspiracy of Big Business and Labor working together to influence election outcome. I was disagreeing that the union rep. suits are actual Laborers, and that they're interests aren't always pro-labor, and effectively, they can be big business, too.

But it's not my claim, or his claim. The article itself claimed they were working together. Not specifically on union/anti-union legislation, but on colluding to effect the outcome of the election. That's what the article itself is about. Did you read it? Do you even know what you're responding to? (i.e. are you grounded, or just babbling nonsense again?)



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08 Feb 2021, 8:11 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Where you lose me is that now unions are working with big business that are destroying unions through anti-union legislation. Hey, if you have proof unions are support big business to destroy union power, I am happy to see it.


I was responding to a point made by another user regarding the conspiracy of Big Business and Labor working together to influence election outcome. I was disagreeing that the union rep. suits are actual Laborers, and that they're interests aren't always pro-labor, and effectively, they can be big business, too.

But it's not my claim, or his claim. The article itself claimed they were working together. Not specifically on union/anti-union legislation, but on colluding to effect the outcome of the election. That's what the article itself is about. Did you read it? Do you even know what you're responding to? (i.e. are you grounded, or just babbling nonsense again?)


Well, I am not just calling you names and bullying you.



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08 Feb 2021, 8:15 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Well, I am not just calling you names and bullying you.

Er, I'm making an observation and trying to offer a helpful suggestion: Get grounded, man.



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08 Feb 2021, 8:16 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Well, I am not just calling you names and bullying you.

Er, I'm making an observation and trying to offer a helpful suggestion: Get grounded, man.


Gaslight someone else. I don't appreciate the bullying.



ezbzbfcg2
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08 Feb 2021, 8:21 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Well, I am not just calling you names and bullying you.

Er, I'm making an observation and trying to offer a helpful suggestion: Get grounded, man.


Gaslight someone else. I don't appreciate the bullying.


That's not gas-lighting, it's an honest observation. This thread is about an article talking about a big business lobby working with a labor lobby in regards to the outcome of the 2020 election.

I was discussing that with another user.

You came along, clearly hadn't read the original article that this thread is about. You butted in to a conversation that you couldn't follow. Then you asked me for "proof" of this collusion between business and labor...which is the topic of the thread and the article. So, you're not really reading the thread and article, you're just responding to me talking to someone else.

It's okay. Not everyone can get grounded. You are dismissed.



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08 Feb 2021, 8:40 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
Now unions are bad because they are in bed with management??? I thought they were socialist or whatever the prajorative of the day is. With all the right-to-work laws passed, you are going to have to actually support that claim. Amazon is fighting unionization right now. The anti-union sentiment is this country is simply destructive to the workers.


Oh, hey, it's you again. I hope you read what I wrote here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=394357&p=8713293#p8713293

I try to talk to people with different views. But when talking to someone who isn't grounded, it can get pointless. But I'll try again: Nothing you're saying here has anything to do with what I'm asking. Unions as institutions do offer benefits to workers. Amazon workers probably would benefit from a union. Nothing at all to do with my question to another member.

What we're seeing in this scenario in the TIME article is business interests controlling politics. Big Business + Union suits (not actual laborers) colluding and meddling in legislating the democratic process. That's troubling, even if your guy won and you're happy with the results.


Yup, interest groups have been influencing the political process ever since there was a political process. Certainly business has had a huge influence in our political system. Where you lose me is that now unions are working with big business that are destroying unions through anti-union legislation. Hey, if you have proof unions are support big business to destroy union power, I am happy to see it.


If the unions over there are anything like over here, there is a chance they could be headed that way...

Back in my days in the security industry, the company we worked at was taken over by a larger company. At the same time, the relevent union came around to sign up as many new members as they could.

Once the staff were transferred to the new company, we started experiencing issues with our pay, with some not being paid for over 6 weeks (despite their being on weekly or fortnightly pay agreements), but the union, which received large payments from the new company, was not interested in helping in any way to see about getting us paid (we all contacted them), and it took the staff at the affected sites to threaten to strike before the company did anything (which started with their arranging for the union to tell us we shouldn't take any action as there wasn't a problem, but finally resulted in our being paid and receiving the missing back-pay) - As long as the union were getting the dues from the workers, and the "donation" from the company, they were happy to sit back and ignore the workers.



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08 Feb 2021, 8:59 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Trump lost....by 7 million votes.

No election rigging could offset those results.

Even in the tightly-contested state races.

Trump wanted Georgia election officials to “come up with” phantom votes. He knew he lost in Georgia.


Generally, in a Democracy, the party with the most votes wins.
America has a strange system.

We have an odd system in Australia also.
Losing candidates give 'Preferences' to one party.
This should be stopped, imo.



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08 Feb 2021, 9:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Quote:
"Every attempt to interfere with the proper outcome of the election was defeated", says Ian Bassin, co-founder of Protect Democracy, a nonpartisan rule-of-law advocacy group.
Nice quote; accurate, too!
And yet, had the positions been reversed with Mr. Trump winning...
Irrelevant hypothetical argument.


Based on past history, the Democrats would have been howling also.
Well, they did for 4 years.

This "one side all good, the other all bad" concept is binary nonsense.



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08 Feb 2021, 9:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
So they are basically acknowledging the fact that they committed voter fraud. America is over.
One may suspect that this is what you wish.


Speculation.