A Saudi first: Gender-mixed Mozart concert

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judge not that ye be not judged. . .

Merle

I "assume" because it is true. Speak to people from Saudia, they'll tell you it's a beautiful country. "The women have all they want." "I didn't have to do anything, and everything is affordable." The last quote from a fellow female college student. Many willingly put on the ayaba/niqab, and look at what happened in Turkey. Hijab was banned until it the law was repealed overwhelmingly last year. I don't agree with KSA's strict enforcement of the niqab, but I'm sure removing the law wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, men and women are not suppose to touch each other if they're not related. I even recall seeing a video of a Saudi woman refusing to shake the hands of King Abdullah.

Think about who put into power Hamas and Hizbullah? Look into the elections of Iraq. The west wont understand it because we've lived under secularism for a long time now. Like i posted earlier, there is nothing Christian in a Christian nation, there is plenty of Islamic rule in an Islamic country.

There is a very big difference in muslim practice compared to christian practice. The law is very based on the religion. To separate the laws is to separate the religion from the people. If anything, they'll become more lenient on the punishments, but it is not going to have a revolution like the west faced in the 60s--and you'll truly not read or see any blasphemous material (considering there are blasphemy laws in many of these countries). Definitely not in a country like Yemen. Now, I don't get why you keep mentioning that it is a young religion. Baha'i is less than 200 years old and has more progression than others. Sikhism too. The difference is that they do not have a nation in which it is the state religion.

If you want to see secularism, look into Syria. They're definitely not moving into an Islamization of the country any time soon, especially not after Hama.

6 of the "hijackers" are still alive, my friend. The list of passengers on all 4 flights contained no Arab or Muslim names. The WTC was constructed to handle multiple Airplane impacts. There was no debris in the Pennsylvania crash. 9/11 is just another incident that was created to create a war, war is a very profitable situation. For example, before Pearl Harbour, over 90% of the American population wanted nothing to do with the war. After Pearl Harbour, 1 million men enlisted into the armed forces.

Anyway, back on topic, my view of the KSA will never change. It's a wahaabist monarchy, ruled by pigs who don't mind breaking the laws they enforce. I'm completely against enforcement of wahaabi laws, it's the most extreme form of Islam, and is completely mordern in origin. I spit on the royal family. The law in the KSA is a perfect example of Draconian laws. However, even if these laws were removed, most of their citizens will still continue to maintain their social attitude, which is fine. Enforcing it by force is unethical.

Okay.

Now deal with my post, Merle.

If I'm completely honest with myself, I couldn't really give a monkeys right nut what these people choose to do with their time, except in the areas where it concerns me, and mine, and by extension of that, my choice of religion and government. I simply trust that time and experience will lead them to a path that does not involve trying to ram their own choice of religion down my throat. I have exactly zero desire to follow Islam, or believe that Mohammed is gods chose whatever etc etc.. careface..in much the same way that I have zero desire to follow Christ, God blahdeblah all that crap. I do, however, have sympathy with anyone who does not need that kind of shite in their lives being oppressed or driven to do things they do not desire to do. Regardless of which society is better overall, we live in the west, in broadly christian nations, and are fully aware that women are NOT evil, or satan, or lesser in some way. We know this because we live this. Ergo, they can damn well get over it, live with it, and grow the hell up.

If you don't care about anything to do with us, our faith, our laws, and our lifestyle, why post? We're certainly not sending any missionaries to your doorstep.

Btw, what makes you think that we consider women as "evil"? It certainly shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever about our faith, or any faith on that matter. This reminds me of a particular quote - "A little knowledge can be dangerous. Lack of knowledge can be embarrassing."

That's the thing. It doesn't concern you because you are not living there. You're not being forced to do anything.

Islam:
No alcohol.
No drugs.
No revealing or tight clothing.
No. No. No.

Christianity at a point was like that, until the renaissance where the people began to value money more than religion.

To clarify, women aren't viewed as being evil in Islam. There just cannot be a mixing of the sexes. There's a reason why.

I am pretty sure that the people there enjoy living under Islamic law. They've been living that way for a very long time.

Actually, mixing of the sexes is considered alright by all schools of both Sunni and Shi'a sects. It's wahaabism that discourages it.

That is because this discussion is about Salafist Saudi.

I understood that, but the general Saudi society does not apply to the international Muslim community, let alone the Arab community. The way you put it...I unfortunately assumed that you view all Muslims in that manner. My mistake, I apologise.

Ha, yeah. I just filled it with a bunch of extra information.

The northern Arab countries are pretty much secular. Saudi just takes a big chunk of Arabia--and much of the spotlight.

For a country like Saudi Arabia this is literally history in the making. This is groundbreaking.

Bit of the old international travel.. narrows the mind wonderfully I feel. Then there was the lengthy conversation/argument/debate with a "Learned Persian", amongst other things. Quite enjoyable it was as well, with a solid friendship formed. Not bad considering I'm embarrassingly unknowledgeable, and not a muslim, so therefore completely incapable of having any knowledge of that religion, or current events on a global scale, and only being aware of what the western media say, buying everything Zion tells me is true, having exactly zero contact with large muslim (and hindu and sikh amongst others) populations in and around my home, whilst also being a raging racist and probably a homophobe as well. ( All angles already well and truly argued in the name of defending Allah and the actions of his people.)

Not sending missionaries? Need I post an endless string of examples of Islamic preachers spreading their "gospel" in my generic "not actually christian but based on about thousand years of christian leadership and values so probably just about considerable as christian if you really push the comparison" nation? Should I link the videos of British citizens telling us how they intend to destroy our nation in the name of Islam because thats what their local Imam told them they should do? Should I post the pictures of london buses bent into unusual shapes because someone decided that suicide and mass-murder is a genuinely clever way to get into heaven?

Perhaps "evil" is too strong a term. Evil is probably too.. emotive. It implies connection on a human level. But I beg indulgence.. what term would you use to describe the sentiment that allows a woman to be stoned to death for defending herself from being raped? (To pick a random example from a random nation?)

And pray excuse my use of the term Islam.. god forbid that I attempt to simplify matters by not referring to the specific subsects and spin-offs and technical terms etc etc in order to save myself a few hours.

There are idiots in every community, lol. Why do you consider the actions of a few and label them with the rest?

My city is 55% Muslim. *Looks around for preachers*. I don't see any trying to convert the 40% Hindu and 5% Christian population. Strange. I see the 5% Christian population's missionaries every now and again telling me that Jesus is the only answer.

Are you aware of what an Imam is in Islam? There's no priesthood in Islam, anyone in a group who has the most knowledge on the religion can be the Imam. Other types of knowledge can't apply. There are five mosques within walking distance from my home. All the imams are different. While one Imam might talk about charity, showing kindness, etc, another Imam could be talking about boycotting American products, talking about jihad, etc. I'm sure that applies to priests of every religion as well. However, unlike the other religions, we reserve the right to impeach these Imams if we consider their views as incorrect. Unfortunately, most Muslims blindly listen to what they say.

Btw, suicide + murder are sins in Islam. It's a one way ticket to hell. I will never understand why these lunatics blow themselves up in the name of Allah without realising that what they're doing is completely forbidden and despised by him. Ask any Muslim in your neighbourhood about what they think about suicide, murder, and jihad. Their answer will completely go against your belief that Islam preaches murder and suicide. There are upto 1.4 billion people who call themselves Muslim in this planet. How many exactly are terrorists? I doubt the number exceeds 50,000.

As for the stoning of women, I've already explained it in a thread in the love and dating section. I'll quote my post here.

I never said that Islam itself preaches murder, though other muslims have said it has very strong views about getting on with jews. As far as stoning is concerned.. Islamic states condone this as a form of execution. Whether its in the paperwork or not is irrelevant.. the do it. Likewise with the suicide bombing bollocks. I am well aware that the whole thing goes against what is written.. but someone is obviously reading it wrong, and reading it loudly.

In other words, Islam is hugely open to interpretation, because people are interpreting it in horribly fatal ways. Also.. "few idiots" is relative. I seem to recall huge numbers of people ranting and calling for beheadings, killings, jihad etc etc over 1) the pope being misquoted/misunderstood 2) a cartoon 3) that book by Salman Rushdie, which was utter shite. I seem to recall a whole nation up in arms because Richard Gere kissed Shilpa Shetty (sp?) on stage.. OMGODZORZ how bad is that? Really... come on...

Regardless of how benevolent, unmilitant, moderate and sensible you might be, there are a thousand more ready to kill over something as stupid as a beard or a kite.

That is because Muslims would rather follow Hadith/sunna than their Qur'an.