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funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 8:27 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Interesting - Someone from the left being against a workers\working class protest...


I'm against a protest where people are happy to show solidarity with guys with swastikas and Confederate flags. Personally I'd consider that a fair litmus test for if I can support a protest, if they tolerate Nazis openly flying their symbols than one should expect left-wingers (along with all other reasonable people) to not express support.


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Brictoria
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01 Feb 2022, 8:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Interesting - Someone from the left being against a workers\working class protest...


I'm against a protest where people are happy to show solidarity with guys with swastikas and Confederate flags. Personally I'd consider that a fair litmus test for if I can support a protest, if they tolerate Nazis openly flying their symbols than one should expect left-wingers (along with all other reasonable people) to not express support.


From the reporting I have seen, there was one person who was as you described, and the protesters wanted nothing to do with them...

Quote:
Video from the trucker protest against vaccine mandates in Ottawa shows demonstrators asking a masked man holding a confederate flag to leave the area.

The video shows the man with the flag walking away from a group of protesters as one of the demonstrators calls out, "Now he's going. Now he's gone. We called him out. He knows. He's gonna hold his head in shame now."

Source: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-with-confederate-flag-told-to-leave-by-ottawa-truckers-we-called-him-out



funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 8:36 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You raise valid criticisms of Trudeau but these people aren't concerned with the criticisms you've raise except for using them as gotchas.


I know I'm running a bit ahead of the game here, but it seems there are a lot of non-Canadian WP members who have no clue what Trudeau is really like. He's branded himself as a down-to-earth, cool Liberal who lets us buy pot at the corner store. People who are left-wing in America assume that all "left-wing" or progressively-minded people in Canada must wanna suck Trudeau's d_ _ _ just because he's young, somewhat handsome, and leader of the Liberal party. I don't think people have any clue how racist and misogynous he is, the extent of our environmental and humanitarian crises, or the collapse of our economy. Don't even start me on his father's legacy.

I agree it's not completely related to the trucker issue but it's rare that anyone pays attention to Canadian politics so I'm taking this opportunity to let people know what it's really like. I guess we might consider a separate thread for it, but at the same time there ARE quite a few Canadians who are protesting against Trudeau in general, without regard to the trucker situation. Their voices should be heard too.


funeralxempire wrote:
Do you think the guys with Confederate flags care if my loved ones who live on a reservation have access to clean drinking water? Hell no, they're the guys who slander us as Siberian freeloaders.


The people with the Confederate flags might not. You're right. But there are a lot of people there without that attitude, who aren't rednecks or racists or radicals. They're just regular people fed up with the BS. It takes passion for any Canadian to get involved when it's -20C, and they're essentially gridlocked into the city with no way out.


funeralxempire wrote:
If you want an alternative you've got to look at the Greens or the NDP because the right will never offer one if racism and sexism are concerns.


I agree. I don't vote Conservative, and I didn't vote for Trudeau. OK actually I did the first time, but sure as heck not the next two.


I think you definitely raise a good point about how Trudeau is perceived, especially south of the border (from what I've seen).

I would just suggest that those criticisms would be more effective if they were made on their own instead adding them to what's mostly focused on this specific protest which is largely made up of people who are hostile to those goals.

I don't believe they're as moderate as you make them out to be. Moderate people don't march alongside people with swastikas, if they do than one is allowed to re-evaluate whether or not it's fair to still consider those people to actually be moderate.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 8:37 pm

Brictoria wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Interesting - Someone from the left being against a workers\working class protest...


I'm against a protest where people are happy to show solidarity with guys with swastikas and Confederate flags. Personally I'd consider that a fair litmus test for if I can support a protest, if they tolerate Nazis openly flying their symbols than one should expect left-wingers (along with all other reasonable people) to not express support.


From the reporting I have seen, there was one person who was as you described, and the protesters wanted nothing to do with them...

Quote:
Video from the trucker protest against vaccine mandates in Ottawa shows demonstrators asking a masked man holding a confederate flag to leave the area.

The video shows the man with the flag walking away from a group of protesters as one of the demonstrators calls out, "Now he's going. Now he's gone. We called him out. He knows. He's gonna hold his head in shame now."

Source: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-with-confederate-flag-told-to-leave-by-ottawa-truckers-we-called-him-out


Well how nice, one guy with a confederate flag got called out, no word on the many people with swastikas. :roll:


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There's no such thing as a free market.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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01 Feb 2022, 8:47 pm

I just read a bit more of an update and I have to admit you're right about the growing number of alt-right crazies. There are more than I realised. I still don't want to dismiss the thousands if not millions of good people with good intentions, or the freedom of assembly we all share, but yeah .... scary stuff from that fringe group. I heard there were First Nations leaders and flags in Ottawa but I don't see any reference to that today, even on APTN.


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01 Feb 2022, 8:48 pm

Wait…Siberian Freeloaders???WTF


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funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 8:50 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Wait…Siberian Freeloaders???WTF


It's a common insult from settlers because it helps undermine the idea of being indigenous.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 8:54 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I just read a bit more of an update and I have to admit you're right about the growing number of alt-right crazies. There are more than I realised. I still don't want to dismiss the thousands if not millions of good people with good intentions, or the freedom of assembly we all share, but yeah .... scary stuff from that fringe group. I heard there were First Nations leaders and flags in Ottawa but I don't see any reference to that today, even on APTN.


I'm sure there are people who aren't aligned with that stuff, but that's how extremists exploit wedge issues when trying to mainstream their cause more broadly.

Think of how QAnon exploited hashtags like #savethechildren for another recent example of the same process. They can't admit to all their guano up front so they present with a much more agreeable face.


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There's no such thing as a free market.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Dylanperr
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01 Feb 2022, 9:04 pm

Trudeau flees over 1,000 trucks, Trudeau wouldn't even stand a chance in suburbia where there is thousands more trucks.



Last edited by Dylanperr on 01 Feb 2022, 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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01 Feb 2022, 9:05 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Think of how QAnon exploited hashtags like #savethechildren for another recent example of the same process. They can't admit to all their guano up front so they present with a much more agreeable face.


Since I don't follow American politics I don't really know what QAnon is or what you're referring to, although of course I can make an educated guess that it's related to the Maxwell story.

My question then is what do we do? We can't let the crazies take over or scare decent people away from protest. I understand not wanting to be associated with them, but we can't exactly walk away and let them (or Trudeau) win, either.


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01 Feb 2022, 9:08 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Wait…Siberian Freeloaders???WTF


It's a common insult from settlers because it helps undermine the idea of being indigenous.

I’ve never heard it before.I don’t get it,people here want to claim Native heritage even when they probably don’t have near as much as they think.
I’ve never heard anyone insulted like that.


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Brictoria
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01 Feb 2022, 9:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Interesting - Someone from the left being against a workers\working class protest...


I'm against a protest where people are happy to show solidarity with guys with swastikas and Confederate flags. Personally I'd consider that a fair litmus test for if I can support a protest, if they tolerate Nazis openly flying their symbols than one should expect left-wingers (along with all other reasonable people) to not express support.


From the reporting I have seen, there was one person who was as you described, and the protesters wanted nothing to do with them...

Quote:
Video from the trucker protest against vaccine mandates in Ottawa shows demonstrators asking a masked man holding a confederate flag to leave the area.

The video shows the man with the flag walking away from a group of protesters as one of the demonstrators calls out, "Now he's going. Now he's gone. We called him out. He knows. He's gonna hold his head in shame now."

Source: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-with-confederate-flag-told-to-leave-by-ottawa-truckers-we-called-him-out


Well how nice, one guy with a confederate flag got called out, no word on the many people with swastikas. :roll:


So you're saying that entire protests should be solely judged based upon a small minority of people attending who hold the worst beliefs\motives\actions, rather than the views expressed by the majority of those protesting...



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01 Feb 2022, 9:16 pm

Brictoria wrote:
So you're saying that entire protests should be solely judged based upon a small minority of people attending who hold the worst beliefs\motives\actions, rather than the views expressed by the majority of those protesting...


I seem to recall that's the stance you took towards BLM.

I'm saying I wouldn't align myself with a protest movement largely organized by far-right groups that has no problem with the open display of white supremacist iconography. Perhaps that's not a litmus test you'd apply.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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01 Feb 2022, 9:26 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

Think of how QAnon exploited hashtags like #savethechildren for another recent example of the same process. They can't admit to all their guano up front so they present with a much more agreeable face.


Since I don't follow American politics I don't really know what QAnon is or what you're referring to, although of course I can make an educated guess that it's related to the Maxwell story.

My question then is what do we do? We can't let the crazies take over or scare decent people away from protest. I understand not wanting to be associated with them, but we can't exactly walk away and let them (or Trudeau) win, either.


If the crazies organized it there's nothing to be taken away from decent people if they don't participate in it. If it's a cause they feel strongly about they certainly can act, but ideally not in a manner the people they don't want to be associated with can leverage.

QAnon is a whole host of conspiracy theories, but often either truthful stuff like the Epstein or Maxwell cases, or innocent looking stuff like the hashtag #savethechildren was how people were introduced to it. No one started off believing the global elite were committing horrible sex crimes so they can harvest mind altering substances as part of Satanic ritual, that was only a small number of people who help peddle the idea. Most of the people who spread the ideas associated with that conspiracy theory spread less sensational parts of the conspiracy theory and sometimes try to act like they're skeptical of the real crazy stuff, falling for the false moderate trap.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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01 Feb 2022, 9:36 pm

I don't believe the crazies organised it though.

Canadians have the stage for making change right now. We don't get the spotlight or the opportunity for mass demonstration very often. As far as I can see the alt-rights and anyone breaking law are being arrested and removed.

As usual I can see both sides (your point and my point). I'm a die-hard believer in democracy and peaceful protest, so I'm not going to change my values because of the idiots.

It's one of those ethical dilemmas that comes with no easy answers but I tend to stand up for my beliefs, no matter what.

I've been involved in other political protests for work despite threats of violence.

I get a little stubborn when it comes to what I think is right.


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01 Feb 2022, 9:40 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I just read a bit more of an update and I have to admit you're right about the growing number of alt-right crazies. There are more than I realised. I still don't want to dismiss the thousands if not millions of good people with good intentions, or the freedom of assembly we all share, but yeah .... scary stuff from that fringe group. I heard there were First Nations leaders and flags in Ottawa but I don't see any reference to that today, even on APTN.


Once the extremists (either right or left) felt free to start crawling out of the wood work, they started tainting everything.

But I'm determined to not let them recolor every cause they touch.

I've not investigated the source and connections with this protest, and I don't know how deep the extremist connection runs, the general trend is just something to keep in mind. It wouldn't be fair of me to remind people of that when talking about causes like Black Lives Matter without also mentioning it with anti-vax truckers. Everything gets tainted to some degree. It really is unfortunate.


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