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EzraS
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29 Dec 2019, 8:40 pm

SoloSailor wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Just logged in. Interesting reading. I wonder if any of it has made its way over to the mod thread.

If it does, I wonder if it'll get deleted again?


Most likely.



beneficii
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29 Dec 2019, 8:46 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

Take it or leave it.


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29 Dec 2019, 8:51 pm

beneficii wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance

Take it or leave it.

So... the answer is no to all. Got it.


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beneficii
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29 Dec 2019, 9:29 pm

Yup, false balance. If it's any consolation, it doesn't just go to the denialist view either, but also to the apocalyptic view, which also gets undue weight. From the article specifically on climate change:

Quote:
The notion of balanced coverage may make perfect sense when covering a political convention, but in the culture of science, balancing opposing views may be neither fair nor truthful. As such, many experts argue that it is misleading to give scientific mavericks or advocates equal time with established mainstream scientists.

Yet there is evidence that this is exactly what the media is doing. In a survey of 636 articles from four top United States newspapers between 1988 and 2002, two scholars found that most articles gave as much time to the small group of climate change doubters as to the scientific consensus view. Given real consensus among climatologists over global warming, many scientists find the media’s desire to portray the topic as a scientific controversy to be a gross distortion. As Stephen Schneider put it:

“a mainstream, well-established consensus may be ‘balanced’ against the opposing views of a few extremists, and to the uninformed, each position seems equally credible.”

Science journalism concerns itself with gathering and evaluating various types of relevant evidence and rigorously checking sources and facts. Boyce Rensberger, the director of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Knight Center for Science Journalism, said, “balanced coverage of science does not mean giving equal weight to both sides of an argument. It means apportioning weight according to the balance of evidence.”

The claims of scientists also get distorted by the media by a tendency to seek out extreme views, which can result in portrayal of risks well beyond the claims actually being made by scientists. Journalists tend to overemphasize the most extreme outcomes from a range of possibilities reported in scientific articles. A study that tracked press reports about a climate change article in the journal Nature found that "results and conclusions of the study were widely misrepresented, especially in the news media, to make the consequences seem more catastrophic and the timescale shorter."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_cov ... al_warming


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EzraS
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29 Dec 2019, 10:41 pm

SoloSailor wrote:
So... the answer is no to all. Got it.


Is there a Godwin's type law regarding apealing to Wikipedia in a science debate? If not there should be.



beneficii
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30 Dec 2019, 12:02 am

EzraS wrote:
SoloSailor wrote:
So... the answer is no to all. Got it.


Is there a Godwin's type law regarding apealing to Wikipedia in a science debate? If not there should be.


Wikipedia is quick to find and reference and the articles nowadays tend to be well-sourced, especially when they come to medicine and science. Sorry, but this forum has no right to demand anything more.

As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources, i.e. sources that review primary sources. A lot of people who like to take a very individualist approach to science (to put it nicely) like to engage with the primary sources directly, but when you're outside the field you can often just end up engaging in cherry-picking. Reliable secondary sources give you a wide view of the field and let you know where it's headed and the current understanding.

As Wikipedia's policy states:

Quote:
Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... #Secondary

But these individualists dabbling in the field are feeling good about their evaluative abilities and think they can beat the experts in the field at it, and they dislike having it already done for them.


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30 Dec 2019, 1:32 am

SoloSailor wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I feel like an annoying bug buzzing around two gladiators

Annoying, no. Amusing, yes.


I'll settle for "Amusing".
I am happy to be second fiddle,
The "Beta Male" as Sheldon Lee Cooper would say.
You are doing a remarkable job, Leonard Hofstadter.
Perhaps we should get a room? 8O

While I think beneficii is a remarkable young woman,
And I admire the way she presents her arguments,
My understanding differs from hers,
And is in sympathy with yours.
That's the Truth,
My puppy dog's tooth.
What can I say? :shrug:

I am "The Oracle of Truth",
So it is in my interest to maintain an objective POV.
But that objectivity revolves around rationalism, not subjective emotionalism, so there is an unfortunate, unintended emphasis against the progressive argument with it's inherent irrational platform which incorporates the rejection of scepticism.

What surprises me is the shallow approach the (largely) progressives have in regards to the climate change debate.
One of the most crucial aspects of the discussion is political interference/corruption intended to force a narrative,
But this seems to be largely ignored by the (predominantly) left-wing antagonists.

And once they say: "The science is settled",
All I can do is blink in disbelief. <blink> <blink> <blink>

Not easy being me,btw,
Let me tell you. :wink:
Poor me. <sad face> :(

Being right all the time is a thankless job,
But I'll manage.
Somebody has to step up to the plate and strike for: "Truth, Justice, and all that Stuff". :mrgreen:



Last edited by Pepe on 30 Dec 2019, 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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30 Dec 2019, 1:41 am

EzraS wrote:

Is there a Godwin's type law regarding apealing to Wikipedia in a science debate?

Image



Pepe
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30 Dec 2019, 2:02 am

beneficii wrote:

As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources,


I use Wiki often and find it very informative,
But I am not naive to the political bias influencing it's presentation *at times*.

One must always carry a sack of salt when traversing the realm of Wiki-kingdom.
I haven't come across many nooks of questionable content,
But I have found some disturbing instances of power abuse thought denial of conceptual, err, concepts.

This is to be expected.
There is only one true "Oracle of Truth" after all. 8)
And it's not easy being green,
Err, the colour,
Not the politics. :mrgreen:



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30 Dec 2019, 2:05 am

beneficii wrote:
As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources, i.e. sources that review primary sources.

You are, of course, welcome to think whatever you like- but the reality is that Wikipedia has a long history of using biased sources and representing political opinion and editorial as fact.
An example of one of the sources listed in the page you linked:
Quote:
The Guardian newspaper is internationally respected for its coverage of the climate crisis.


beneficii wrote:
A lot of people who like to take a very individualist approach to science (to put it nicely) like to engage with the primary sources directly, but when you're outside the field you can often just end up engaging in cherry-picking. Reliable secondary sources give you a wide view of the field and let you know where it's headed and the current understanding.
But these individualists dabbling in the field are feeling good about their evaluative abilities and think they can beat the experts in the field at it, and they dislike having it already done for them.

Ho. Lee. Crap.
That is one of the most transparent and presumptive attempts at backhanded personal insult that I've seen in quite some. Your rejection of first principles and individual thought are truly a credit to the Collective.
All in all, a very, very fine example of what passes for logic in Progressive circles. Well done.


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30 Dec 2019, 2:12 am


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30 Dec 2019, 2:16 am

SoloSailor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
The IPCC is supposed to review the literature and give proper weight to the papers, and as things stand it is in favor of anthropogenic global warming.

The UN IPCC is a political organisation. Expecting impartiality from that quarter would be akin to expecting to see a herd of rainbow farting pink unicorns on your front porch every morning.


With the UN applauding on the sideline. :mrgreen:

BTW,
Dude,
You seem to have a unicorn fetish.
What did your mother do to you? 8O
Unicorn denial as an infant? :scratch:



Pepe
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30 Dec 2019, 2:25 am

SoloSailor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources, i.e. sources that review primary sources.

You are, of course, welcome to think whatever you like- but the reality is that Wikipedia has a long history of using biased sources and representing political opinion and editorial as fact.


OI!
I just said that!
Get your own material! 8O

SoloSailor wrote:
An example of one of the sources listed in the page you linked:
Quote:
The Guardian newspaper is internationally respected for its coverage of the climate crisis.


"The Guardian". <snigger>
Next, they will be talking about: "theconversation.com". :lmao: :lmao:



SoloSailor
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30 Dec 2019, 2:37 am

Pepe wrote:
OI!
I just said that!
Get your own material! 8O

Beat me by 3 minutes. $%&$%&$& captchas!
Oh, and about the unicorns:
I see them as the perfect symbol for CAGW. Even though they don't actually exist, they seem to excite a lot of people and are legendary for their habit of leaving a trail of crap wherever they go.


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beneficii
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30 Dec 2019, 2:58 am

Pepe wrote:
beneficii wrote:

As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources,


I use Wiki often and find it very informative,
But I am not naive to the political bias influencing it's presentation *at times*.

One must always carry a sack of salt when traversing the realm of Wiki-kingdom.
I haven't come across many nooks of questionable content,
But I have found some disturbing instances of power abuse thought denial of conceptual, err, concepts.

This is to be expected.
There is only one true "Oracle of Truth" after all. 8)
And it's not easy being green,
Err, the colour,
Not the politics. :mrgreen:


However, their science articles are usually pretty good, if you measure them by their reliance on reliable secondary sources--basically systematic reviews and meta-analyses in peer-reviewed journals, as well as textbooks, especially postgrad textbooks published by academic presses--in the field. But therein lies the rub. If the reliable secondary sources in the field by and large say something you don't like, or don't agree with, then you may be unhappy with Wikipedia's coverage of that field. And if it's a topic that's been treated as a political issue, even when at its core it's a scientific issue, if a major political party disagrees with the reliable secondary sources, then for sure they are going to complain that Wikipedia's coverage is "political" because Wikipedia will rely primarily on the reliable scientific sources to describe and explain the subject--treating the political views as a separate matter, either sticking them in a separate section or splitting them off onto a satellite article.


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EzraS
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30 Dec 2019, 3:08 am

Pepe wrote:
SoloSailor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
As an addendum, I think one reason why people dislike Wikipedia is because of its reliance on secondary sources, i.e. sources that review primary sources.

You are, of course, welcome to think whatever you like- but the reality is that Wikipedia has a long history of using biased sources and representing political opinion and editorial as fact.


OI!
I just said that!
Get your own material! 8O

SoloSailor wrote:
An example of one of the sources listed in the page you linked:
Quote:
The Guardian newspaper is internationally respected for its coverage of the climate crisis.


"The Guardian". <snigger>
Next, they will be talking about: "theconversation.com". :lmao: :lmao:


There was a recent one from The Daily Mail.