Trudeau flees as first 1,000 Trucks Arrive in Ottawa

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funeralxempire
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05 Feb 2022, 8:58 pm

txfz1 wrote:

How many swastikas did you count?

If we're counting WS symbols why only include swastikas? Confederate and Les Patriote flags both count.

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Brictoria
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05 Feb 2022, 9:41 pm

It's nice to see peple with different views coming together, rather than fighting...

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05 Feb 2022, 9:44 pm

It seems there was some violence at one of the protests in Canada, with 4 people injured

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Brictoria
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05 Feb 2022, 10:46 pm

Unfortunate video from Ottawa at the protest site, with people being told to "go back to your own country"
https://twitter.com/lincolnmjay/status/1490119824474783749
(video is embedded (not youtube), so can't link directly.)

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05 Feb 2022, 10:49 pm

A little bit of good news, to help people get through this:

Quote:

Despite reports to the contrary, preliminary police data shows street crime has actually fallen since the Freedom Convoy blockade began at Parliament in Ottawa, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.

The truckers’ blockade covers 10 square blocks in the Centretown district and finished its sixth day on Thursday.

There were only three reports of street crime in that district since the protest began: For mischief, robbery and auto theft.

In the week before the protest, the same district saw 31 police calls for robbery, assault, drug trafficking, public drunkenness, stolen vehicles, store break-ins and other crimes.

“There have been no riots, injuries or deaths,” Police Chief Peter Sloly said Wednesday at the municipal Police Services Board.

“We are arresting, charging and investigating bad actors.”

Source: https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/less-crime-in-affected-ottawa-district-since-blockade-began-early-data-suggests

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06 Feb 2022, 9:52 am

So here is some food for thought. Canadians and Americans, please chime in:

So at this moment in the Pandemic, the 3 US states with the lowest daily case rate compared to the 3 provinces with the lowest daily case rate. Note that today's numbers are in the same ball park, but that the the "Omicron spikes" in the US states were WAY higher than in the Canadian provinces. I would conclude that the difference between the size of the spikes is what mostly distinguishes Canadian COVID-19 policy from American policy (which for the most part is decided at the State level anyway).

I can recall from a year ago, if I were to suggest, even in the most polite manner possible, that Canadian policy was occasionally a bit too extreme, I would be immediately slammed by any Canadian saying that as an American I wasn't even entitled to an opinion because the US is such an out-of-control dumpster fire of COVID-19 contagion.

OTOH in Maryland (where I live) these sort of protests (such as the Freedom Convoy) aren't happening at all and I am not personally aware of anybody literally suffering as a result of public health policy (plenty of people are suffering for all sorts of reasons here but not because of that particular reason). Restaurateurs have certainly seen better days but it's because of people choosing to not dine indoors, not government policy.

Any thoughts about this? BTW this is from here: COVID-19 in the U.S.: How do Canada's provinces rank against American states?. I wonder why we seem to see so much more CBC content than CTV content but anyway this is an extremely well-done web page.

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06 Feb 2022, 10:09 am

This thread is a guaranteed flame war because it's impossible for anyone to express an opinion without arousing indignation from other participants. Consider my own views (which I don't think are particularly radical).

I have no sympathy for people who refuse to get vaccinated for "philosophical" reasons. I am also fully aware there are some people with valid medical reasons for not getting vaccinated and am sympathetic to those who became so ill from their first dose that they haven't been able to screw up their courage to get the second (although it's difficult indeed to avoid being accused of having no empathy toward such people).

OTOH (as stated in my previous post) I am highly skeptical of what to me seem extreme measures taken in Canada to control the spread of COVID-19 (arguably the most extreme in the Western world). Most arguments made in this thread seem to relate to that, however as I also said I am not entirely comfortably criticizing Canadian policy given that I've been made to feel that as an American I have no moral standing to do so.

Nevertheless I firmly believe that this protest has attracted many of, if it hasn't actually been coopted by, the sort of quite frankly right-wing people for whom only right-winger have any kind words, usually. This is why there have been back-and-forth allegations as to whether swastikas, expressions of White Supremacy, etc. have been widespread in these protests. This inevitably leads to sealioning and eventually any sort of meaningful dialog on that topic is beaten to death.

If anybody here has suffered as a result of Canadian Federal or Provincial public health policy over the last 2 years, you have my sympathy but please try to apply some perspective when deciding for yourself who the "good guys" and the "bad guys" are in this situation.

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06 Feb 2022, 12:44 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

txfz1 wrote:

How many swastikas did you count?

If we're counting WS symbols why only include swastikas? Confederate and Les Patriote flags both count.

I was told there are "lots", so far we have the stars and bars that was removed and the one on the colorado pu. two

The swastikas are one nazi flag shown twice in the video and the banned sign. three

The Les Patriote flag is a new one to me, not much on wiki about WS only nationalistic. So how many?

To date, using the 1000 trucks that is not my definition of lots. When you add that a percentage of these truck are from the US, I would expect the photos of "lots" to be more than five.

funeralxempire
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06 Feb 2022, 12:56 pm

txfz1 wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

txfz1 wrote:

How many swastikas did you count?

If we're counting WS symbols why only include swastikas? Confederate and Les Patriote flags both count.

It's the green/white/red tricolour with a star and a guy with a musket. They were quite widespread in early reporting. If you look into the groups that currently use it you'll see why I describe it as a WN symbol and not just a far-right symbol.

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06 Feb 2022, 12:57 pm

MaxE wrote:

Oh yes, mitigation measures have been so extreme here in Canada.. wash your hands, wear a mask, keep 6', get vaccinated, large gatherings cancelled, some types of businesses closed temporarily. Sure, there's collateral damage of some small businesses not surviving (restaurants, yoga studios, gyms etc.) but people aren't exactly being rounded up onto trains awaiting their final shower.

The problem with the protesters, besides the fact that we should take medical advice from Doctors, not truckers lol, is that even with only a few highly visible hate symbols, there are far more than a few in that crowd that agree with what those symbols represent. The protest of people who are frustrated with mandates has been overtaken by white supremacists and separatists - far right fringe loonies preying on people frustrated with covid mandates to bring them into their lunatic fold for future political pawn use as they make their next attempts at having some nutter or another elected into a position of power.

I have family and friends who've had medical procedures delayed due to covid. These freedom a-holes are making things worse for them - jamming up hospitals with covid cases instead of getting vaccinated and reducing it to a bad cold/flu and just staying home a few days and then carrying on. Yes, others are suffering from depression or drug abuse - so do your part and get vaccinated, go back to work & stay out of the hospital already! Science our way out of this and get back to some form of social normality where people aren't so isolated and losing their minds for it.

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06 Feb 2022, 7:49 pm

Ottawa declares state of emergency as police boost enforcement, target protest's fuel supply

Quote:

The City of Ottawa declared a state of emergency Sunday afternoon in response to ongoing protests in the downtown core, while Mayor Jim Watson described the situation in the nation's capital as the "the most serious emergency our city has ever faced."

In a statement, the city said the declaration "reflects the serious danger and threat to the safety and security of residents posed by the ongoing demonstrations and highlights the need for support from other jurisdictions and levels of government."

City solicitor David White told city councillors on Saturday that the declaration of a state of emergency "does little" in terms of legal authority and does not give more power to Ottawa police.

A local state of emergency will allow Ottawa to work more efficiently to manage essential services and make procurement more flexible, the city said. Provincial legislation grants mayors powers during an emergency to make orders "not contrary to law to implement the emergency plan of the municipality and to protect property and the health, safety and welfare of the inhabitants of the emergency area."

Watson said the state of emergency will help Ottawa Police get the supplies and equipment they need faster.

"The state of emergency gives our staff and our city a few extra tools to speed up things like procurement," he said in an interview with CBC News Network on Sunday evening.

"We're in the midst of a serious emergency, the most serious emergency our city has ever faced, and we need to cut the red tape to get these supplies available to our police officers and to our public works staff."

Earlier in the afternoon, Ottawa police announced they would ramp up enforcement on protesters in the city's downtown core, handing out tickets and announcing that anyone looking to bring "material aid," such as fuel, to protesters could be arrested.

"Enforcement is underway," the Ottawa Police Service tweeted on Sunday afternoon.

Shortly after announcing that Ottawa Police would be cracking down on the protesters' fuel supply, one of the protest organizers said they would find a way around the police action.

Structures in place in Ottawa's Confederation Park, including a plywood shack and tents, were removed on Sunday after protesters co-operated with police.

Amid increasing resident anger, police said on Saturday that they lack the resources to end the protest, now in its 10th day.

Politicians have also increasingly denounced the protest over COVID-19 public health restrictions, with Ontario Premier Doug Ford and others calling it an "occupation" and the head of the Ottawa Police Services Board referring to it as an "insurrection."

Organizers for the protest maintain they intend to stay in the city until the federal government lifts all restrictions related to the COVID-19 pandemic, even though most of those measures were introduced by the provinces.

On Friday, crowdfunding platform GoFundMe announced it would be stopping payments through the main convoy fundraising page, which by then had received more than $10 million in donations.

Quebec City convoy ordered to leave the National Assembly

Quote:

Large trucks and cars were seen honking and driving away from the National Assembly after Quebec City police ordered them to leave the area by 5 p.m. on Sunday.

Earlier in the morning, police told those parked in front of the Quebec National Assembly that if they didn't move, they could face fines and towing. At least two dozen heavy trucks were still there by Sunday afternoon, as the protest in the provincial capital rolled into its fourth day.

Protesters, many carrying signs or waving flags, began gathering in the morning. Most had left the area by 5:30 p.m.

The previous night, drivers had been honking loudly until 10 p.m., when police ordered them to stop.

"The way this weekend rolled out is magnificent. Unique. Quebec has stood up," said Bernard Gauthier, a protest organizer, speaking to the crowd on Sunday.

"Sunday's demonstration was smaller than the protest on Saturday, which stretched about a kilometre in length at its peak, but Mayor Bruno Marchand said it has been peaceful so far.We were asked to demonstrate peacefully, that's what we did."

Dr. Luc Boileau, the interim director of Quebec Public Health, said earlier in the week that relaxing public health restrictions may lead to "more contagion, with the risk in particular of seeing more hospitalizations."

Regardless, the provincial government is pushing forward with its plan to scale back measures.

As of Monday, performance halls and cinemas can open at 50 per cent capacity, to a maximum of 500 people.

Counter-protesters say 'Go Home' as Vancouver convoy disrupted

Quote:

For the second consecutive weekend, protesters opposed to COVID-19 vaccine mandates and other pandemic-related restrictions took to the streets of Metro Vancouver.

Unlike last weekend, however, the convoy met organized resistance in the City of Vancouver.

Dozens of counter-protesters on foot and on bicycles met the rolling protest on Terminal Avenue as it headed toward Main Street Saturday morning. Counter protesters carried signs with messages reading, “Honk if you’re vaxxed,” “No Hate Speech” and “Go Home.”

After a standoff that lasted less than an hour, both groups started to leave the scene, with some counter-protesters indicating they were headed to the intersection of Main and Hastings streets, believing the convoy would attempt to enter downtown via Hastings.

Vancouver police said on Twitter late Saturday morning that the convoy had "split in multiple directions," with "numerous counter-protesters" attempting to stop it by blocking intersections.

in support of trucker convoy

Vancouver police said on Twitter late Saturday morning that the convoy had "split in multiple directions," with "numerous counter-protesters" attempting to stop it by blocking intersections.

By early afternoon, a line of trucks and other vehicles could be seen streaming over the Burrard Street Bridge. Many honked their horns and waved Canadian flags. Others displayed the Canadian flag upside-down as well as signs containing profanity-laced anti-government messages and conspiracy theories about vaccines and journalism.

"Expect major delays on the Burrard Bridge if traveling to the downtown core due to the ongoing protests," police said in another tweet. "Consider an alternate route."

Police added that "hundreds" of vehicles had made it into the downtown core and were "causing significant congestion."

Vancouver health authorities warn staff to shelter and hide medical credentials during anti-vaxx convoy

Quote:

ancouver’s two health authorities are urging health-care workers to take defensive measures to avoid clashes with a convoy of anti-vaccination and anti-restriction demonstrators heading toward the city on Saturday.

Memos obtained by CTV News and sent to staff of Vancouver Coastal Health and Providence Health hospitals on Friday afternoon make similar suggestions not to engage with the protestors and reminding them that British Columbia now has legislation protecting health-care facilities from being impacted by demonstrations.

“As a precaution, we recommend that staff stay inside while the convoy is passing and to not engage with any protestors,” wrote Providence Health in a memo, describing the planned route as passing Mount Saint Joseph and St. Paul’s hospitals in its jurisdiction. “We acknowledge the right to peacefully and legally protest.”

Vancouver Coastal Health, which oversees Vancouver General Hospital, sent a longer memo with similar language to Providence but with some additional warnings.

“Refrain from wearing scrubs and/or your ID badge outside of the hospital during the demonstration,” read their memo. “If you do encounter any protestors, please do not engage or respond to their questions. Please do not ask protestors to put on a face mask.”

'They were directly in harm's way': Victoria businesses report threats amid COVID-19 protest

Quote:

t’s not often a barista fears for their safety while they whip up a latte, but staff at two Victoria coffee shops say that was the situation on Saturday.

As thousands of anti-mask and anti-COVID-19 vaccine mandate protesters voiced their views on the lawn of the legislature, several businesses say they were intimidated and harassed by members of the crowd.

“They were directly in harm's way," said Rich Becker, general manager of the Steamship Grill and a Starbucks in the area, referring to his employees.

Becker says throughout the day his staff were subject to countless protesters refusing to wear masks inside.

On his day off, he drove downtown to help his management team, who he said were scared and intimidated by anti-maskers storming the small shop and refusing to leave.

"[A protester] said, 'I'm not leaving and I can get 100 other guys in here,'” Becker told CTV News.

Separating his staff from the aggressive protesters, Becker was able to get the men to leave.

He then locked the Starbucks location's doors and shut down early as he feared reprisal from the group.

The Starbucks situation was not a one-off.

Management at the Hotel Grand Pacific said their workers faced a challenging day as unmasked protesters demanded to use their washrooms.

"It was definitely a fear knowing they were here without backup,” said Discovery Coffee assistant manager Esther Kennedy.

Discovery staff too faced intimidation and threats when asking some protesters to don masks, which is a B.C. COVID-19 regulation.

Problems for Starbucks management went deeper than just threats and harassment from socalled "Freedom Convoy" supporters.

Rich Becker said he called 911, fearing violence was going to erupt in his coffee shop.

He says dispatchers asked him if anyone was being physically assaulted. When he said not yet, but feared it was near, the dispatcher hung up on him, he said.

Becker says he called back repeatedly and was told the situation was not an emergency.

“If law enforcement says we’ll only come if someone is seriously injured, now I have to wait for someone to be seriously injured? I don’t want that. My employees don’t want that,” said Becker.

Victoria police said the protest was peaceful and they received no calls for service to the area. Since Becker’s claims, officers are taking a closer look at 911 call logs.

Police are also facing criticism after an officer in a patrol car was captured on video Saturday giving the largely unmasked crowd a thumbs-up.

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DW_a_mom
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06 Feb 2022, 10:19 pm

Dox47 wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

But it is also disturbing to me how people can't see that no matter how much Trump "speaks" to them, he is the one who literally looks down on them and abuses them. The Republican party, as a whole, really isn't much better.

So, what you're saying is that those rubes just don't know what's good for them...

Do you not see the issue?

That isn't what I'm saying, although I can understand why it seems I am. I should have been more careful with wording. Truth is I know brilliant people who've fallen for this crap, and idiots who see right through it. Propaganda and manipulation thrive on something other than relative IQ or "rube" status. I'm not enough of an expert to accurately identify what it is that makes people susceptible, except to say I'm sure we all can be if someone finds the right approach for our unique psychological, emotional and intellectual composition.

Quote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

When you talk about attitudes towards individuals, I see a chicken v egg problem that hasn't been considered. The liberals I know had not previously looked down on "workers," even if they were oblivious to forces ruining blue collar lives, but they DID start to look down on groups of people that were clearly and excitedly following the siren call of Trump (which often turned out to be blue collar workers).

You think all of these people were just imagining the contempt and condescension from the coastal elite types until Trump came along and made it real? That's the chicken and egg problem you should be thinking about, why does half the country hate you and your friends enough to vote in an obviously corrupt and incompetent president just to stick it to you?

Yes and no. The problem was growing for a while, as middle managers with college degrees became the face of layoffs and other decisions that eroded the earning capacity of blue collar workers. The people with the charts and graphs that showed out-sourcing to be the way to go were identified as the bad guys. But how often was that really the person who sat in the room with someone and had to deliver the bad news? Almost never. That the entire professional class became associated with a trend it wasn't fully responsible for never was an accurate picture, but that is where it seems to have started. Liberals were oblivious to how the game of association and telephone was making them the straw men. Liberals were getting blamed long before they understood they were getting blamed, Trump brought it out into the open. But, seriously, my whole family is in that class and we're not the ones that ever though out-sourcing to other countries was a good idea. A leads to B and B leads to C and before you know it the whole blame game is sitting on the people who are also pawns while the King sits in the corner with all the cookies.

Certainly I know professionals who are HORRIBLE to the trades. But the ones I know are all CONSERVATIVES, believers in the "dog eat dog" philosophy that leaves them needing to mess with EVERYONE. They do exactly what Trump is reported to have done: order work and find an excuse to not pay all of the bill. The first time I realized a client was doing that, it made my blood boil. He's a scumbag, but he's a scumbag who has been a strong supporter of Trump. Sees him for who he is, and loves him anyway. Associating the crap of someone like him with the attitudes of someone like me is entirely unfair, but seems to be what has happened.

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06 Feb 2022, 10:32 pm

Brictoria wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Brictoria wrote:

Wouldn't forcing a person to do something they did not want to\objected to, because another person\group desired they do so (for whatever reason), also be considered "selfsh" in any other situation?

Setting aside, just for this debate in this moment, all the fine distinctions, valid exceptions and freedom issues, I would say "no," not when it is for the greater good.

Oh, "The Greater Good" - the excuse which can be used to cover any number of things that people don't want questioned (Doubtless, for example, the Chinese government sees their treatment of the Uyghur people as being, similarly, for "the Greater Good", as did those who supported segregation).

Setting aside this "ends justify the means" ("Greater Good") "defence", as I indicated with the "in any other situation" conclusion to my question - Would it be "selfish" where the mythical "greater good" cover was not applicable?

I am aware there is a fine line, and I don't like forcing people to do anything.

I prefer that people actually care about something beyond themselves and be smart enough to understand what is necessary for everyone to have the best chance of survival.

China moved fast into force, and it worked for them, but that isn't something I would ever want done here. But watching disinformation take deep roots and keep so many people from doing what needs to be done has been incredibly frustrating. While I don't agree with forcing, I can understand why some people have had enough of the backlash and are willing to make some things into rules.

All laws are based on some version of the concept of the "greater good." Laws are designed to help a society junction effectively. Caring about the community as a whole is not a bad thing, provided there are guardrails to keep it in it's proper place. Whether or not the lines are being drawn in the proper place always has to be considered.

And it certainly isn't like anyone is advocating something destruction, bad or immoral. Just a boundary of selfishness.

Going back on-topic, I personally support people organizing a protest to have their voices heard, and I've always been reluctant to mandate anything. Mandates should be a last resort, and only to the extent of absolutely solid science. I think in most cases a compromise rule can be reached that prevents the needs for a mandate. My office was worked things out between the vaccinated and the un-vaccinated by getting the owner to invest in a few extra air cleaners and allowing more work from home. That this issue has to get as hard as it has in so many places baffles me, to be honest.

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07 Feb 2022, 12:31 am

Brictoria wrote:

It seems there was some violence at one of the protests in Canada, with 4 people injured

Show Spoiler

A minor update:

Quote:

The man charged in Winnipeg for an attack on a convoy protest is a radical far-left anarchist. Police, however, are still treating the incident as a hit-and-run, rather than a hate crime.

[...]

Police have not said if the attack was a politically motivated hate crime, instead charging Zegarac with four counts of assault with a weapon, two counts of dangerous operation of a conveyance causing bodily harm, dangerous operation of a conveyance, two counts of failure to stop after an accident knowing that the driver was reckless, and failing to stop at the scene of an accident times two.

However, Zegarac — a 43-year-old musician from Winnipeg who describes himself as Indigenous, Serbian and Irish — is the frontman of Canadian punk bands The Brat Attack, Dead Peasants Revolt, The Black Mass Brigade, and Class War Kids.

Zegarac's Wikipedia page is now deleted, but an archived version is still available which links back to several web pages detailing Zegarac's politics.

His online bio states that his song lyrics deal primarily with anarchist politics and that he is an outspoken vegan and a long-time anti-racist activist.

[...]

Winnipeg police have claimed they were unable to address the motivations behind Zegarac's alleged striking of protesters, but said he did speak to officers while being arrested.

Source: https://www.rebelnews.com/man_charged_in_winnipeg_car_attack_on_convoy_protest_is_radical_far_left_anarchist

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07 Feb 2022, 12:36 am

Sign, sign
Everywhere a sign
Blockin' out the scenery
Breakin' my mind
Do this, don't do that
Can't you read the sign?

This is bringing out the scary monsters and super creeps on both sides. The worst of humanity.

Sometimes I'm ashamed to be a human being.

I wish people could protest, whatever their belief or whatever the topic, without hurting others.

~ Scary Monsters, Bowie

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07 Feb 2022, 2:04 am

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