Emo? Might want to nix the Iraq vacation...
Sweetleaf
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15 Mar 2012, 3:34 pm
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
TBH I'll jump ranks, become an economic liberal, and switch my party affiliation to Democrat, Socialist, or Green the day someone can point me to the stash of hidden/esoteric truths that are withheld from conservatives and neoliberals.
Do what you want I don't see what is so great about the democrat party either though.
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17 Mar 2012, 10:32 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our s**t doesn't stink.
Sweetleaf
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17 Mar 2012, 10:34 am
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
I used to believe that our government had the best of intentions, and such and that it was the best country ever and all that sort of stuff...but then I woke up from that dream.
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Kraichgauer
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17 Mar 2012, 1:49 pm
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
It was out of that same "self-interest" that we supported dictatorships, such as in Egypt, and in Saudi Arabia during the cold war (though again, the Soviets had done much the same thing in that part of the world). Our support for Israel isn't the only reason why the people there hate us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Last edited by Kraichgauer on 17 Mar 2012, 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Sweetleaf
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17 Mar 2012, 1:50 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
It was out of that same "self-interest" that we supported dictatorships, and sometimes even propped up, in the Middle East, such as in Egypt, and in Saudi Arabia (though again, the Soviets had done much the same thing in that pert of the world). Our support for Israel isn't the only reason why the people there hate us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
exactly
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jojobean
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17 Mar 2012, 9:26 pm
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
It was out of that same "self-interest" that we supported dictatorships, and sometimes even propped up, in the Middle East, such as in Egypt, and in Saudi Arabia (though again, the Soviets had done much the same thing in that pert of the world). Our support for Israel isn't the only reason why the people there hate us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
exactly
Ya the cold war was actually a hot war at one point where both superpowers were using people of the middle east as foot soldiers.
I have no idea what Obama was/is doing stirring up all the ppl in the middle east in this manifactured "Arab Spring"
He's toppling regimes left and right for what purpose??
I find it rather ironic that repubs call him weak on forgien policy....he is the most warmongering democrat I ever seen.
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Kraichgauer
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17 Mar 2012, 11:19 pm
jojobean wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
It was out of that same "self-interest" that we supported dictatorships, and sometimes even propped up, in the Middle East, such as in Egypt, and in Saudi Arabia (though again, the Soviets had done much the same thing in that pert of the world). Our support for Israel isn't the only reason why the people there hate us.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
exactly
Ya the cold war was actually a hot war at one point where both superpowers were using people of the middle east as foot soldiers.
I have no idea what Obama was/is doing stirring up all the ppl in the middle east in this manifactured "Arab Spring"
He's toppling regimes left and right for what purpose??
I find it rather ironic that repubs call him weak on forgien policy....he is the most warmongering democrat I ever seen.
You don't think the Arab Spring was at all spontaneous?
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
techstepgenr8tion
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18 Mar 2012, 9:12 am
marshall wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Without getting into supporting detail I'll try to sum up where my outlook differs; I tend to see the US as a country that means to do right by the human condition, believes that you can't have fruitful capitalism around the world without representative democracy and regimes that are friendly to that paradigm, and even with the best of intentions, unfortunately, if you live and operate in a dirty world and want to broker any deals at all you're stuck taking a roll in the mud sometimes. IMHO when people do call it an 'evil empire' I tend to think that they're painting a one-sided image to suite ideologies which seem to well up much more from an externalization of internal and personal grievances with reality rather than an objective relay of the outside world.
I think it's pretty easy for people and institutions to convince themselves and society at large that they are acting altruistically when a closer look reveals that the actions pursued as "means to do right" are rather conveniently aligned with pure machiavellian political self-interest. Nowhere is this more stark than during the cold war, especially our under-the-radar support of violent right-wing regimes and militias in the name of combating the spread of Marxism. It's hard for me to not see how it looked from the perspective of impoverished and repressed banana republics of the world, that the USA was acting, directly or indirectly, on the side of the boot upon their neck. It's not so much that the US is anywhere near as bad as some. I mean, yea, compared to Stalinist Russia or Saddam's Iraq we are not quite so 'evil'. But at the same time that bar is pretty damn low and really doesn't justify the claim that our sh** doesn't stink.
Right, its kind of like how both places - Afghanistan and Iraq - had major meddling from our side beforehand - ie. we propped up Mujahedin as well as Bin Laden to fight the Russians but then when it was all over we never tried educating the people, in Iraq we were terrified that Iran would roll right into Israel and destroy them hence we propped up what *seemed* to be less of a potent a***hole who proved to be a real thorn in our arse (which I also get the Paul Mooney jokes where he played a psychic on Chapelle, someone asked "Does Iraq have WMD's?" and he says "Yes.....we have the receipt"). OTOH with Israel, that's a stranger animal and whether people want to call them a disgusting and oppressing occupation or an island bastion of human rights in the sea of dictatorships and despots that the middle-east is known for, that choice of vision is quite ideological and it takes having very little info omitted to come to either conclusion.
I think what I'd ultimately argue is that in a better world the US wouldn't have gone to those ends but - in a dirty world where things have to get done and the citizenry seem quite opposed to any personal involvement in anything that they don't have to, they were doing what they felt they had to. Whether that means that the American public need a huge informational reality check though is likely a whole other topic that I could say lots on and for starters I'll say we'd definitely need to get over our Late Rome mentality.
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