R.I.P. The Greatest Show on Earth

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leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 9:06 pm

EzraS wrote:

I doubt considering how important the elephants were to them, that they would abusing them. Like with race horses, my guess is for the most part they took good care of them to protect their investment.

I will stand and object right alongside anyone talking about actual abuse, and I once even witnessed some elephant abuse committed by a fellow handler in the small circus where I had worked. For the most part, however, that was by far and away the exception and certainly never endorsed by the show's owners who always did their very best at taking good care of their bread-winners, both animal and human.

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androbot01
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15 Jan 2017, 9:08 pm

leejosepho wrote:

EzraS wrote:

You guys just aren't getting it ... the act of forcing them to perform is the cruelty.

EzraS
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15 Jan 2017, 9:09 pm

The level of animal abuse via coercion in this video is absolutely appalling:

EzraS
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15 Jan 2017, 9:12 pm

And what about me? I've been held captive by this man and woman my whole life. They tell me when to sleep, when to eat, when to bath, make me do chores, and they PUNISH me when I don't obey them. :cry:

leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 9:19 pm

androbot01 wrote:

I said it disgusts me that people would coerce/abuse animals for passing amusement...

...but you have yet to prove coercion or abuse! And in the case of elephants, they were being used as working-for-human-profit animals long before some were trained to "dance" rather than pulling logs through the mud.

androbot01 wrote:

I would argue that a dog trained to help blind people is great, while dogs competing in a dress-up beauty contest would be asinine.

What is useful to one human might not be useful to another.

androbot01 wrote:

If humanely slaughtered meat were available I would pay more for it...
I did however stop going to the circus after one visit.

It is not impossible for me to believe you might have seen elephants not being treated humanely, and I have no argument against your distaste for elephants being trained to dance...just please stop categorically calling it coercion and/or abuse! Some other fellows and I once spent an entire afternoon playing with our show's elephant in a nearby creek, and she was later just as "happy" when we dressed her up and led her back to the tent where she again had everyone's attention.

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leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 9:26 pm

androbot01 wrote:

... the act of forcing them to perform is the cruelty.

What proof do you have of the animals being forced? I have been there, and never once did we *ever* have to "force" our dear Lisa into the show ring. The only trouble we ever had where any kind of coercion or force -- but never any abuse -- was ever needed or used (other than the one incident of impatient handling I have already mentioned) was on the rare occasion that she would have preferred a stroll through town rather than returning to her post or berth for the night.

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0regonGuy
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15 Jan 2017, 10:21 pm

EzraS wrote:

That's a real shame. Despite not liking crowds and noise etc, I very much enjoyed the couple of times I was taken to a Ringling Bros circus show.

0regonGuy wrote:

Wah, wah, wah. If we can't use elephants, then we are going to shut our circus down. Wah, wah, wah. :cry:

OK, bye bye.
:salut:

Actually it says ticket sales plummeted after the elephants were removed, which forced them out of business.

It's been many, many years since I went to a circus, but best as I can remember, elephants were a very small part of the show. As a matter of fact, I can't remember if all the circuses I went to as a kid even had elephants. I know they all had lions and tigers. I remember that for sure. Some of them had elephants, but I can't remember if they all had them. It could be I was just more impressed with the lions and tigers, and that is what I remember.

Either way, a circus should be more diversified then just an elephant show. If that is all they had to offer, then I don't see it as any great loss that they are going away. Businesses need to adopt to changing environments, or they go out of business. Obviously this one couldn't adopt. I don't see it as a great loss.

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EzraS
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15 Jan 2017, 10:43 pm

0regonGuy wrote:

EzraS wrote:

That's a real shame. Despite not liking crowds and noise etc, I very much enjoyed the couple of times I was taken to a Ringling Bros circus show.

0regonGuy wrote:

Wah, wah, wah. If we can't use elephants, then we are going to shut our circus down. Wah, wah, wah. :cry:

OK, bye bye.
:salut:

Actually it says ticket sales plummeted after the elephants were removed, which forced them out of business.

Ringling Bros aka The Greatest Show on Earth, had quite a lot of different amazing acts involving all sorts of animals, including humans. But apparently as far as the audience was concerned, the elephants were the star of the show.

leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 10:50 pm

0regonGuy wrote:

Businesses need to adopt to changing environments, or they go out of business. Obviously this one couldn't adopt. I don't see it as a great loss.

For some people, it is no loss at all since it never meant anything to them anyway. Overall, however, it is not so much that any particular circus (such as Ringling, in this case) cannot adapt, but that no circus will ever be able to adapt and remain in the black on the profit ledger. Something such as Pokemon Go can hold young attention spans and get into purses and pockets indefinitely, for example, but live acts on a stage do not have any UI controls. Last year my wife and I attended a modernized, basketball-court-sized circus that came to our small town and played in a local recreation center, but attendance was quite low and it is impossible for me to imagine anyone having made any profit that day. So what we have here goes far beyond any matter of what kinds of animals either might or might not (or either should or should not) ever do (or be subject to) one thing or another. This is really just a simple matter of the portion of society than has never found the circus entertaining now seems to be the majority that "rules" by spending its entertainment money elsewhere...and no, that does not prove there must therefore have always been something wrong with circus!

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leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 11:02 pm

EzraS wrote:

...apparently as far as the audience was concerned, the elephants were the star of the show.

Only in part, and I would actually suspect at least partly in the sense that something such as "auto polo" -- https://www.google.com/search?q=auto+polo -- just never held the same attraction as when polo is played from horses. Personally, and while admitting this is completely indefensible: I never really cared much for the elephant acts and yet always judged a circus as "real" only if it had real elephants...and I did not find it humorous when the modernized show my wife and I attended used a small, inflatable "elephant" and a couple of its older human stars --quite likely former handlers -- to present a so-called "elephant act". The act was well-written and I can appreciate its intent, but only just a few of us older folks even understood what was going on while the remainder of the attendees appeared confused and quite bored.

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Last edited by leejosepho on 15 Jan 2017, 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Misslizard
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15 Jan 2017, 11:06 pm

Would it be ok to use a bull hook on the Lab?How about a house cat?
Those are domesticated animals,most wouldn't survive outside of captivity.Elephants do just fine without human help.I can buy that not all the trainers and handlers were abusive,but enough were to draw attention to the problem.Blame the ones that mistreated the animals.Thats why you don't get to see elephants at a circus anymore.If it mattered so much to you,why didn't you start a petition to keep the elephants in the show?Now you whine about it.Everyone has said how much they enjoyed it as a kid,but how many of you go regularly?
The evening news also mentioned rising operation costs,so it wasn't just the elephants.There have been a few circuses that have had animals escape,so the insurance rates would be ridiculous.
Enough people spoke out and said this was wrong,think of it like a vote.lol They wouldn't have stopped this over a few letters of protest.
Race horses get drug tested regularly,handlers used to dope them before the races.That is not the definition of caring for an animal.Many buy them not becuse they love horses,but as an investment.If they are a winner they get a cushy retirement life as a brood mare or a stallion for breeding.

Darmok wrote:

^ Animals don't do this in nature. How can you look at that picture and not be disgusted.

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leejosepho
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15 Jan 2017, 11:12 pm

Misslizard wrote:

I can buy that not all the trainers and handlers were abusive...

The evening news also mentioned rising operation costs, so it wasn't just the elephants.

Exactly, and that is why I refuse to silently allow the activist-rhetoric hijacking of this thread.

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androbot01
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16 Jan 2017, 1:36 am

leejosepho wrote:

What is useful to one human might not be useful to another.

leejosepho wrote:

...just please stop categorically calling it coercion and/or abuse! ...

leejosepho wrote:

What proof do you have of the animals being forced?

I've already said this, but you don't seem to understand, so I will say it again. Forcing elephants to do tricks for the amusement of people is abuse. Do you think the elephants would do these tricks if they were not being coerced to do so. Keeping them in a circus environment is the cruelty.

Dox47
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16 Jan 2017, 2:06 am

androbot01 wrote:

It would help if you actually made an argument, instead of merely repeating your premise over and over. Why is it cruel to train elephants to do tricks but not cruel to teach dogs to do tricks? You're apparently talking to an actual handler, what makes you so sure you know better?

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Dox47
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16 Jan 2017, 2:09 am

Misslizard wrote:

Would it be ok to use a bull hook on the Lab?How about a house cat?

An appropriately sized one in appropriate circumstances? Sure, I mean they use those noose looking things to catch out of control animals all the time, and that looks at least as nasty as the way trainers actually use the bull hook, which seems to me to function similarly to spurs on a horse.

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nurseangela
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16 Jan 2017, 2:36 am

Dox47 wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

Would it be ok to use a bull hook on the Lab?How about a house cat?

Actually, Mr. D. , I've seen how they train elephants and its horrible. I never want to see it again.

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