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ASPartOfMe
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24 Aug 2025, 1:52 pm

Bunno wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I am anti woke. Those people want to only highlight the bad because they believe America is inherently evil and needs revolutionary change. Wokeism is an overcorrection to a real thing the previous whitewashing of American history. Most anti wokism is an overcorrection to the woke overcorrection wanting to go back to the days of whitewashing history.

A part of Trumps base are racists. He is signaling to them he is on their side. That is something hate groups have said a number of times.


Is it whitewashed? What does that look like, and how does it differ from a society doing what individuals do, and not want to think too much about mistakes... Denial is the first stage of grief and all that...

Here in the UK they go over slavery and segregation etc a fair bit in school. Except of course, the bit about Britain being the almost first country to ban it. And then go around the world beating up other countries and telling to stop it too. Slavery, reckoned to have existed ever since, and it was the abhorrent British empire that drew a line under it, which was itself a consequence of the enlightened thinking and reason that was the founding of the modern western world/ideal. You lot ostensibly fought a civil war over it. And yet here we are, beating ourselves up over it :lol:

I'm not saying for second we shouldn't face the errors of the past as it's essential for progress and learning. But I'm getting a bit sick of every show on telly, from cookery to documentaries on architecture, to find the need to ram in a side story about some historical injustice or other. There's a time and place, and this isn't being "woke" in it's original usage, this is cowards all following some societal script signalling their virtue. These are people who would have been the you-know-who's... because nobody behaving exactly how they're told ever changed anything. The fight to end slavery was a radical position against the societal norm. And yet, todays norm finds a way to assume and commoditise that rebellious virtue while attacking anyone who really displays it


Here in the states when I went to school in the 60s and we learned about slavery but were not taught the founding fathers owned them. We were taught this fable about George Washington chopping down a cherry tree and not being able to lie to his father. While we were taught the North was the good guys that ended slavery, we were not taught that terrorism reverted most of the civil rights gained by blacks. We were not taught how brutal the white people treated the Indians when conquering them. While we were taught about the suffragettes and women getting the right to vote we were not taught that they were tortured on occasion, nor that they excluded blacks because they wanted the southern vote. We were taught Nazi eugenics was evil, we were not taught eugenics was massively popular here, nor that American eugenics and segregation was both and inspiration and influence to Hitler.

History was made by flawed humans who were complicated. The same person often did great and evil things. That is how history should be taught.

What you see on TV often is also an overcorrection. When I grew up if you saw non white people they were criminals or lazy and spoke on stereotypical ways. Adding a non white character is not woke. The problem comes when scenes depicting prejudice that has nothing to do with the plot line is awkwardly added in. It comes off as preaching.


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exec
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24 Aug 2025, 6:11 pm

auntblabby wrote:
IMHO the guy is just a shameless psychopath and the people who voted for him are hardly any better.
I've lost faith in people ever since 2016.


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cyberdora
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25 Aug 2025, 3:39 am

Bunno wrote:
That's not reading between lines or translating though, is it. It's embellishing and extrapolating it out far beyond the words he used, and you can "prove" anything you want with that amount of artistic licence. Now, for the sake of arguement, your assumptions could be 100% nailed on correct, as I'm sure you believe they are. But if you want to convince others of a things you need to keep as close to relatable facts as possible. See, this is the problem; you're so invested in this pillock, so willing to believe anything bad you can't even see such a gross fallacy even when it's pointed out. (And by you I don't mean just you)

I'm sure there's lots of black folk who'd happily hear less about the topic of historical American slavery; would you apply the same translation for them too?


several problems with your interpretations.
1. trump doesn't say things in silos. He has a history of focusing on race a lot even on previous attacks on the Smithsonian museum, and he's called them divisive. You have heard this argument before. It feels like we're hearing it more and in more public spaces, where people will argue that, look, only a small percentage of white Americans were enslavers during the period of slavery, that slavery is thousands of years old.

2. trump says the Smithsonian focused on how horrible the country is, in his words, how bad slavery was.
He also said this as part of that post. He said: "The museums don't focus enough on the success and on the brightness and on the future."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/schol ... ccarthyism

3. trump has a history of gaslighting and dog whistling. His comments about following the 2016 Charlottesville far right protests and his positive comments to the proud boys coupled with his obsession with eradicating DEI make his views on slavery all the more plausible.

4. trump is parroting the daughters of the confederacy who also used window dressing of the heroism of the men and women of the confederacy, the greatness of the south and downplaying slavery < state rights

5. Perception is key. trump is doing everything the far right want. But he is also appealing to people sitting on the fence. People in this category aren't ignorant. the message is clear. Fox news like their latest buzzword "fatigue". Claim white Americans are fatigued about hearing about black civil rights and slavery.

6. trump says if you don't vote me you will have to pay for reparations.

His delivery is Strategic, he's aiming it at "I used to vote democrat but I am getting sick of BLM and DEI so I'll vote trump to get all this removed from public spaces.



Bunno
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25 Aug 2025, 7:16 am

cyberdora wrote:
Bunno wrote:
That's not reading between lines or translating though, is it. It's embellishing and extrapolating it out far beyond the words he used, and you can "prove" anything you want with that amount of artistic licence. Now, for the sake of arguement, your assumptions could be 100% nailed on correct, as I'm sure you believe they are. But if you want to convince others of a things you need to keep as close to relatable facts as possible. See, this is the problem; you're so invested in this pillock, so willing to believe anything bad you can't even see such a gross fallacy even when it's pointed out. (And by you I don't mean just you)

I'm sure there's lots of black folk who'd happily hear less about the topic of historical American slavery; would you apply the same translation for them too?


several problems with your interpretations.
1. trump doesn't say things in silos. He has a history of focusing on race a lot even on previous attacks on the Smithsonian museum, and he's called them divisive. You have heard this argument before. It feels like we're hearing it more and in more public spaces, where people will argue that, look, only a small percentage of white Americans were enslavers during the period of slavery, that slavery is thousands of years old.

2. trump says the Smithsonian focused on how horrible the country is, in his words, how bad slavery was.
He also said this as part of that post. He said: "The museums don't focus enough on the success and on the brightness and on the future."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/schol ... ccarthyism

3. trump has a history of gaslighting and dog whistling. His comments about following the 2016 Charlottesville far right protests and his positive comments to the proud boys coupled with his obsession with eradicating DEI make his views on slavery all the more plausible.

4. trump is parroting the daughters of the confederacy who also used window dressing of the heroism of the men and women of the confederacy, the greatness of the south and downplaying slavery < state rights

5. Perception is key. trump is doing everything the far right want. But he is also appealing to people sitting on the fence. People in this category aren't ignorant. the message is clear. Fox news like their latest buzzword "fatigue". Claim white Americans are fatigued about hearing about black civil rights and slavery.

6. trump says if you don't vote me you will have to pay for reparations.

His delivery is Strategic, he's aiming it at "I used to vote democrat but I am getting sick of BLM and DEI so I'll vote trump to get all this removed from public spaces.

There's no "interpretation" in my comment. Perhaps the penultimate sentence has a little conjecture, besides that it's all comment. And this response just further reinforces my point, which you fail completely in multiple responses to address. Are you even real?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/figures ... s-by-iran/



frollpoff
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25 Aug 2025, 7:44 am

Quote:
But I'm getting a bit sick of every show on telly, from cookery to documentaries on architecture, to find the need to ram in a side story about some historical injustice or other.


Awww poor you. Still, at least you're not enslaved to watching it.



cyberdora
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25 Aug 2025, 4:38 pm

Bunno wrote:


Again give people credit. they aren't mindless zombies. they heard trump before the election call the Smithsonian divisive and the 1619 project dangerous. People said trump came into politics with no experience but as a shady businessman he mastered the art of double speak. You can't have it both ways, on the one hand take him at face value but then when it fits a particular agenda then those defending trump say he is misunderstood.

Proof is in actions. His words align nicely with his anti-Dei actions.



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26 Aug 2025, 12:54 am

Trump and his supporters think history should only exist to glorify one's country, even at the expense of the truth. They don't want to be reminded that America hadn't always represented its core beliefs, or even that it isn't lilly white. Slavery is just the current hill Trump and company want to fight on. Unfortunately, this isn't restricted to MAGA America. Russia under Putin wants to forget the countless deaths laid at the doorstep of Stalin and the communist regime. Even some democracies have taken this route, as Japan still downplays its war crimes committed during WWII; a thing very different in Japan's wartime ally, Germany, which has embraced both the good and the bad of its past.


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cyberdora
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26 Aug 2025, 2:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Trump and his supporters think history should only exist to glorify one's country, even at the expense of the truth. They don't want to be reminded that America hadn't always represented its core beliefs, or even that it isn't lilly white. Slavery is just the current hill Trump and company want to fight on. Unfortunately, this isn't restricted to MAGA America. Russia under Putin wants to forget the countless deaths laid at the doorstep of Stalin and the communist regime. Even some democracies have taken this route, as Japan still downplays its war crimes committed during WWII; a thing very different in Japan's wartime ally, Germany, which has embraced both the good and the bad of its past.


^^^ Yeah exactly Kraichie. America could learn from the German response to Nazism following world war II. everything related to Nazism was torn down. But go to Nazcar in the US and people still cheer a confederate flag or wave them at trump rallies.



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26 Aug 2025, 2:39 am

cyberdora wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Trump and his supporters think history should only exist to glorify one's country, even at the expense of the truth. They don't want to be reminded that America hadn't always represented its core beliefs, or even that it isn't lilly white. Slavery is just the current hill Trump and company want to fight on. Unfortunately, this isn't restricted to MAGA America. Russia under Putin wants to forget the countless deaths laid at the doorstep of Stalin and the communist regime. Even some democracies have taken this route, as Japan still downplays its war crimes committed during WWII; a thing very different in Japan's wartime ally, Germany, which has embraced both the good and the bad of its past.


^^^ Yeah exactly Kraichie. America could learn from the German response to Nazism following world war II. everything related to Nazism was torn down. But go to Nazcar in the US and people still cheer a confederate flag or wave them at trump rallies.


So much for the party of Lincoln.


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cyberdora
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26 Aug 2025, 3:02 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
So much for the party of Lincoln.


Republicans had integrity back then. Makes me wonder, I hope democrats don't laud any leaders prior to Kennedy? Any statues or paintings of democrats (especially in the south) might need to also be put into recycling.



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26 Aug 2025, 3:58 am

^^^
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of hate for FDR among the right. LBJ still holds clout in Texas, I think.


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cyberdora
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26 Aug 2025, 4:04 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of hate for FDR among the right. LBJ still holds clout in Texas, I think.


FDR was a complicated person but Eleanor was a shining light of hope for the country.



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26 Aug 2025, 2:44 pm

cyberdora wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of hate for FDR among the right. LBJ still holds clout in Texas, I think.


FDR was a complicated person but Eleanor was a shining light of hope for the country.


I think in that sense, FDR was representative of America. He had done things as President that have stained his reputation, but still remains a symbol of what the country was always meant to be.


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