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EzraS
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31 Dec 2019, 8:29 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe in the doom scenarios presented by extreme climate-change advocates.

Saying this:

There’s been desertification in Africa and Australia for many years, though it has accelerated in recent years.

I wouldn’t buy a house within about 500 yards of the coast, unless it is on a big hill.


Why do you keep going back to yourself when I am talking about what millions of people are convinced of?



kraftiekortie
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31 Dec 2019, 8:35 am

I’m just giving my side of it.

I believe most people actually believe “whatever happens, happens,” and advocate adjusting to what happens when it happens.

They are pragmatic. They don’t ponder “worst case scenarios.”

I wish flood insurance can be made more affordable.



beneficii
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31 Dec 2019, 11:50 am

I think people are too black and white when they mention about whether global warming "caused" a severe weather event. The scientists are not so all or nothing. What they argue is that climate change makes such severe weather events more frequent and more severe due to the increased energy in the climate system and increased extremes of wet and dry weather, so anybody who is looking to seriously understand climate change should understand that. It's not climate change is 100% the cause and it's not climate change is 0% the cause; it's more complicated than that.

As for worst-case scenarios, I believe institutions like IPCC will usually offer a range in their forecasts, which will include worst-case scenarios, middle-case scenarios, and best-case scenarios. The worst-case scenario is simply one in a range of possibilities, as there is inherently some degree of uncertainty when making predictions. It's the same as in weather forecasting, where for example when looking at where a hurricane will go, there is always a forecast cone representing where the hurricane can go, but just because you're in that cone doesn't mean the hurricane will come right to you. So that IPCC publishes a worst-case scenario doesn't mean they're being fraudsters, or scamming us, they are simply giving one in a multitude of possibilities.

Here, I think the Boy Scout code will do us well: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

There are things we can do to make the worse-case scenarios less likely, such as by implementing cap and trade; going to wind, solar, and nuclear; reducing our dependence on automobiles by making cities easier to traverse without a car; etc.


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31 Dec 2019, 2:47 pm

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
It saddens me that governments around the world have taken little or no action on climate change. We have more floods, hurricanes and bush fires around the world and governments are not doing enough to stop climate change.

Are there really more floods, etc. happening? In reference to what time frame?
Have you made any attempt to verify what you have been told? Or do you simply accept the claims as gospel and then regurgitate the talking points on demand? Why would you think that politicians could or would have any influence on global climactic conditions?

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
Governments world wide have failed their people

Government has *never* been about serving the people. The purpose of government is to consolidate power and the control of resources (human, economic & natural) into the hands of a self chosen few.

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
and democracy is a scam.

Of course it is. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
What is needed are central governments that comprise the best people instead of bumbling idiots like Boris Johnson or Donald Trump as political leaders.

So you believe that <insert failed political ideology here> would work if only the right people were in charge? And you want to further consolidate the power of said ideology? Are you freaking serious?


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31 Dec 2019, 2:47 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn’t buy a house within about 500 yards of the coast, unless it is on a big hill.

Why not?


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31 Dec 2019, 2:49 pm

Tollorin wrote:
What evidences do you need? If there is not enough evidences for you now, there never will be.

What evidence do you have?
Have you ever undertaken any effort to verify its authenticity or do you blindly accept what you have been told ?


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kokopelli
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31 Dec 2019, 3:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don’t believe in the doom scenarios presented by extreme climate-change advocates.

Saying this:

There’s been desertification in Africa and Australia for many years, though it has accelerated in recent years.

I wouldn’t buy a house within about 500 yards of the coast, unless it is on a big hill.


How long do you expect to live in it?

I'd have no problem with buying a home on or near a beach -- I'd just make sure to sell it while people are still paying high prices for that location.

When the next hundred thousand year period of glaciation begins, a house on the beach could find itself fifty miles from the beach in a few hundred years.



beneficii
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31 Dec 2019, 3:49 pm

I thought this article was interesting. A lot in the GOP do accept the science, but refuse to speak up because they think liberals' individual choices expose "hypocrisy" and selectively quote the most ignorant of liberals:

Quote:
National Review columnist Kevin D. Williamson has a perfect specimen of this tendency, of which hundreds could be found. Williamson’s recent column is devoted to the alleged hypocrisy of actress Emma Thompson, who agrees with leading world scientific authorities about the dangers of greenhouse-gas emissions yet still traveled to a climate-change conference via airplane, which of course emitted carbon. Williamson argues that the fact Thompson bought a ticket on an airplane shows she does not, and cannot really, believe climate change is as bad as she says. Apparently, taking her views on climate change seriously would mean boycotting climate conferences not located within a short distance of her home.

Obviously, Williamson’s charge of hypocrisy is manifestly insipid. In general, individual choices have an infinitesimal impact on collective-action problems like greenhouse-gas emissions. In this particular case, Thompson’s choice has either zero, or close to zero, impact. If she decided to avoid buying a plane ticket, either the seat would have been sold to another customer, or the plane would have flown one fewer passenger (perhaps sparing a tiny bit of fuel by reducing the plane’s weight by 110 pounds or so), but either way, it would have burned jet fuel. Williamson argues that she should have boycotted the conference because, “If Emma Thompson fails to show up for the party, there are a thousand celebrities ready to take her place.” He does not seem to realize the same reasoning applies to her failing to show up for an airplane flight. The other side of the equation is that attending climate conferences draws more attention to the issue of climate change, and the general logic of working to build political action by gathering and publicizing ideas is not one in serious dispute by either right or left.

While Williamson’s argument with Thompson here is picayune and self-evidently false, it is certainly the case that many celebrities do say genuinely wrong things about climate change. The world is a big place. It is always possible to find somebody on the other side of a problem saying something silly. Conservative media is filled with columns attacking celebrities, activists, or perhaps backbench members of Congress for overreacting to climate change. This is a whole genre of right-wing column. It is a very appealing one for conservatives who would rather not antagonize their allies. Conservatives might disagree on the small matter of whether the release of heat-trapping gasses into the atmosphere traps heat, but they can agree on the big question that environmentalists annoy them.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/ ... ak-up.html


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beneficii
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31 Dec 2019, 3:51 pm

SoloSailor wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
What evidences do you need? If there is not enough evidences for you now, there never will be.

What evidence do you have?
Have you ever undertaken any effort to verify its authenticity or do you blindly accept what you have been told ?


None of us are experts. You're like someone coming in with a medical diagnosis they can't accept and cherry-picking reasons why they don't really have that diagnosis while ignoring what your doctor said.

We know we are not qualified to try to evaluate and synthesize primary sources, so we rely on what the secondary sources tell us.


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31 Dec 2019, 3:52 pm

SoloSailor wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
What evidences do you need? If there is not enough evidences for you now, there never will be.

What evidence do you have?
Have you ever undertaken any effort to verify its authenticity or do you blindly accept what you have been told ?

Glaciers melting, sea ice shrinking, species migrating, animals "waking up" sooner from hibernating, temperatures changing all around the world and more pronounced near the poles.
I can't verify personally all this stuffs, as I'm not a god, and rather poor even; but all kind of scientists and concerned citizens are witnessing those stuffs.
In south Quebec there is seasons changing (More chaotic winter, and hotter summers with frequent heat waves), the coming of Lyme disease (It's warm enough now for tick spreading it living there), sky stations now depending more on artificial snow, worried about their future and having shorter seasons, outside ice rings now more frequently been closed, and so on... Basically less dependable winters.

As it stand right now, as much as the Sun go, the climate should be cooling, and yet it's warming.

CO2 is greenhouse effect gaz, that much is proved through physical measurements and experiments; humans are producing a great amount of CO2 through combustion of fossil fuels and CO2 can acidify sea water, that much is simple chemistry; the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is rising and oceans are acidifying, that much is shown with various measurements; the average temperatures are rising, that much is established by measurements and observations of various ecosystems and physical phenomenons; there is currently no other satisfying explanation that human activities, as nothing have been seen in natural phenomenon and cycles that can satisfyingly explain the current warming; the climate models are imperfect, but currently the worst case scenarios are right.

I have yet to see climate deniers showing any convincing arguments or evidences; they only say that for some reasons scientists are lying, or stupids by saying they didn't take into account elements that they did took into account.


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31 Dec 2019, 8:05 pm

EzraS wrote:
I'm hearing about record heatwaves due to global warming causing massive fires in Australia. But looking at weather charts for November and December, the temperature looks pretty normal for summer to me. Quite mild in fact compared to Las Vegas, Nevada standards (where I grew up). It looks to me like any record breaking heat occurred in a single day two or three times. But overall looks pretty normal.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/au/melbo ... ?year=2019


Disagree.
This is not a normal bushfire event,
But it isn't unusual either.

The best thing we can do to mitigate the severity of bushfires in the future is to: "Burn a Greenie",
So state and council governments can tackle hazard reduction burns during milder weather and establish/re-establish fire trails, without fruitloop interference. :mrgreen:



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31 Dec 2019, 8:17 pm

Rainbow_Belle wrote:
We have more floods, hurricanes and bush fires around the world


Not based on the statistics I have seen.
Based on my sources:
What you are saying is coming from the: "Ministry of Proper-gander",
Part of the (largely) progressive groupthink tank.



Pepe
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31 Dec 2019, 8:33 pm

SoloSailor wrote:
The Guardian is now claiming that Climate change denial was defeated in 2019.

Methinks that, like their past predictions of doom-and-gloom we're-all-gonna-fry 'Climate Crisis', this too will be shown to have little or no basis in fact.


If you say the same thing over and over again,
Many people tend to believe it. :shrug:

Quote:
But the facts don't actually matter: People repeat them so often that you believe them. Welcome to the “illusory truth effect,” a glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth. Marketers and politicians are masters of manipulating this particular cognitive bias—which perhaps you have become more familiar with lately.

President Trump is a "great businessman," he says over and over again. Some evidence suggests that might not be true. https://www.wired.com/2017/02/dont-beli ... le-repeat/


I had to add the "Trump" example.
I lurve irony. :heart: <sigh> :mrgreen:

N.B.
I'm not a: "Trumper",
I'm not an: "Anti-Trumper".

Quote:

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

Abraham Lincoln


I like to think I am in the latter group. 8)

P.S.
"The Guardian". <snicker> :mrgreen:

Edit:
Quote:
Repetition is what makes fake news work, too, as researchers at Central Washington University pointed out in a study way back in 2012 before the term was everywhere. It's also a staple of political propaganda. It's why flacks feed politicians and CEOs sound bites that they can say over and over again. Not to go all Godwin's Law on you, but even Adolf Hitler knew about the technique. "Slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea," he wrote in Mein Kampf. https://www.wired.com/2017/02/dont-beli ... le-repeat/



EzraS
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31 Dec 2019, 10:03 pm

Tollorin wrote:
I have yet to see climate deniers showing any convincing arguments or evidences; they only say that for some reasons scientists are lying, or stupids by saying they didn't take into account elements that they did took into account.


I have seen quite the contrary. There are many who do look at all the science, who understand it as well or even better than you do, but they come to different conclusions.

This really is not about whether or not climate change exists, but rather how catastrophic it is.

So really the term "Climate Deniers" (which is borrowed from "Holocaust Deniers") should be changed to a more accurate term like "Catastrophe Deniers".



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31 Dec 2019, 10:21 pm

Want to Make a Lie Seem True? Say It Again. And Again. And Again. (continued)

Quote:
The effect works because when people attempt to assess truth they rely on two things: whether the information jibes with their understanding, and whether it feels familiar. The first condition is logical: People compare new information with what they already know to be true and consider the credibility of both sources. But researchers have found that familiarity can trump rationality—so much so that hearing over and over again that a certain fact is wrong can have a paradoxical effect. It's so familiar that it starts to feel right.

"When you see the fact for the second time it's much easer to process—you read it more quickly, you understand it more fluently," says Vanderbilt University psychologist Lisa Fazio. "Our brain interprets that fluency as a signal for something being true"—Whether it's true or not. In other words, rationality can be hard. It takes work. Your busy brain is often more comfortable running on feeling.


Quote:
As with any cognitive bias, the best way not to fall prey to it is to know it exists. If you read something that just feels right, but you don't know why, take notice. Look into it. Check the data. If that sounds like too much work, well, facts are fun.


The Irony here is that this person could quite safely be said to be anti-Trump/anti-Republican,
And the suggestion, as a result, is that he leans towards a more progressive political bent.
(Why would you use a politically sensitive example to make your point otherwise?)
Yet I, a moderate non-partisan atheistic conservative, am using his knowledge to point out the irrationality of largely left-wing thinking politics. :mrgreen:

Don't cha just luv irony?
Ahh, chachacha, cha. :mrgreen:



Pepe
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31 Dec 2019, 10:58 pm

EzraS wrote:

So really the term "Climate Deniers" (which is borrowed from "Holocaust Deniers") should be changed to a more accurate term like "Catastrophe Deniers".


Even further than that.
The term "denier" should be removed altogether to, err, deny encouragement of sanctimony and emotional blackmail.

Say "No!" to the false dichotomy of:
All climate change proponents are the angelic saviours of "Life, the Universe, and Everything/k".
All climate change *deniers* are Nazi-affiliated abominations.

People should ask themselves a simple question:
Why was it necessary to choose such an emotive term?

How can anyone *not* see how emotionally charged the word "denier" is?
How can anyone *not* see the manipulative attempts by some of the climate change proponents to disengage rational thinking in favour of emotionalism?

Ladies, gentlemen, and gender diverse,
I rest my case. 8)

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