Restrained Autistic Student dies on bus

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I absolutely agree that they have to look at what happened with a fine-toothed comb, and make the appropriate changes.

The kid didn't deserve to die because he was having a meltdown.

I like Adamantium's airplane analogy.

By the same token, I feel autistic people who have awareness should really try to see if they can take steps to lessen the impact of their meltdowns. Many autistic people in this position actually do take these steps, it should be noted.

In any restraint situation, the respiratory airway of a person should never be obstructed in any way.

I don't think this is about what he "deserves." I think it's more about the consequences of one's actions.



It's a silly analogy. Planes run on fuel; if you don't put enough in they crash. Since they are a technological construct, I don't know why one would think they would run without fuel.

You guys are looking at this from the perspective of what people should do in reaction to a violent meltdown. That's fine, but it's only one part of the equation. Meltdowns do not remove culpability for one's actions.

I like his analogy because it states that you don't let things stay the same if they are wrong. When I was growing up, there were plane crashes all over the place. Nowadays, they are relatively rare. This is because people felt compelled to do something about the plane crashes, and not just be complacent about them.

Like I said, I still believe that autistic people who have the cognitive ability should partner with their caregivers to lessen the overall impact of their meltdowns. Sometimes, real and costly damage can result from them--that's a fact. Everybody should partner each other, meet each other halfway.

Because you are asking questions and making statements that someone who has had experience with this either as a victim or the parent or assistant of a victim of severe autistic sensory overload meltdowns and shutdowns, would not make or ask.



I posted a response out of frustration, which I'd rather do again in a more detached manner.



It doesn't work that way, I wish it did. There's a difference between emotional controls and neurological controls. If medication worked, less autistic kids would suffer meltdowns. CBT, which I have had for completely different issues, wouldn't apply. Like with seizures (which I have also suffered) a sensory overload meltdown or shutdown can occur in stages of severity. Severe meltdowns in my personal experience and my firsthand observation of others experiencing them over my lifetime, come on very suddenly. It's basically like a switch being thrown. A neurological switch.



No, nature is responsible. No there are not many steps that can be taken to avoid severe autistic sensory overload meltdowns or shutdowns. No they are not "meltdowns" any more than epileptic seizures are "seizures". The physical approach regarding others who are around someone who suffers a sensory overload meltdown, shutdown or seizure, is to assist the victim. The preventive measure that's taken with me so to speak, is that I am always in the company of someone trained in assisting a meltdown.

Now what I am saying is based on a lifetime of personal experience, a lifetime of personal observation of other autistics and a lifetime of having these things explained to me by highly qualified therapists, psychologists and neurologists who specialize in autism.

Now how about you, how have you come to your conclusions specifically in regard to autistic meltdowns and shutdowns?

Last edited by EzraS on 22 Dec 2016, 9:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

As to the situation, the first thing I'd want to know is the history of the school and those involved on that tragic day. How long the school has been in operation and how clean their record is. The same goes for those involved. The victim could have had a severe asthma attack, or an aneurysm or coronary arrest or any other sudden death event. It's way too early to know why he died.

I am quite familiar with severe autistic sensory overload meltdowns and shutdowns. So I guess you are wrong about my questions.


Nature gave you this condition, but you are responsible for how you handle it.


Yes, there are. I'm sure you will discover them in your journey through life.

As someone who has ALSO experienced tantrums, meltdowns, shutdowns, and seizures, I felt the need to jump-in, here.....

I totally agree with Ezra, in that it's like a switch is flipped----and, I ALSO know the exact thing you described, Ezra (the red-hot feeling and white lights).

I'm thinking the difference in these two poster's opinions, has to do with what can be "all-the-way" controlled----and, what can be partially controlled----and, the differences in levels of autism.

I, as someone who has experienced seizures, off-and-on, all-of-my-life, have next-to NO control over when that switch will get flipped. Sure, I can turn-off a news program that is disturbing to me (thereby, lessening the risk of seizure), and I can turn-off the phone that when it rang, caused a seizure----but, how does one prevent a seizure caused by hearing an ambulance go-by, on a noisy city street, when one has to walk those streets to get to work?

Now, I, as someone who has experienced meltdowns, I know that I can control them PARTIALLY, in the sense that when I feel it beginning to happen (the red-hot feeling and white lights), I can control myself enough that I don't punch-out somebody's lights, for instance----but, I can't TOTALLY prevent it from STARTING, because it's a neurological switch, that makes it begin. When someone like me interacts with someone else, I don't generally know what about them / their actions / words, will trigger a meltdown----unless I already know the person always ticks-me-off, or whatever; then, I can usually try to stay-away from someone like that (thus, preventing it from happening, sometimes----but, even THEN, sometimes, just SEEING a person can trigger it----and, how does someone totally avoid that at work, for instance?).

Bottom Line, for ME: My level of Autism is not as severe as Ezra's----nor, is anyone's participating on this thread, AFAIK----and, isn't it the whole point of a spectrum to demonstrate the differences in neurologies? IMO, one with more severe Autism, is gonna have a more "damaged" neurology, so-to-speak----so, it-stands-to-reason, that what *I* can control, Ezra (and I suspect the boy in the OP) CAN'T.

And yet you displayed the opposite of that. You make statements and ask questions which displayed a lack of knowledge and familiarity, and then when I draw an inevitable conclusion, you tell me I'm wrong because you supposedly are actually familiar with and knowledgeable. However, since you chose to display ignorance, that's what I'm sticking with until I have a legitimate reason to conclude otherwise.



That's very philosophical, but it's not scientific. It's basically the same as saying someone is responsible for how they convulse during seizure.



No that's just more philosophy, not neurology. Name the steps and back it up with sources.

And I see you avoided answering my question regarding your expertise in this manner. I'll keep in mind in the future that you've only been able to establish that you only have your own philosophy to offer in regard to the matter.

This is exactly what I am talking about ... taking steps to cope with the condition.


Do you really need to hear me whine about my experiences with meltdowns. It's pretty much the same as everyone else's experience with them. It is what it is. But I take steps to avoid situations which cause them and I have learned how to deescalate myself. But the biggest thing that has helped me is Seroquel. It leaves me feeling foggy all the time, but I prefer to have the control over my behaviour that these treatments allow.

If I attacked someone in the midst of a meltdown I would expect to be restrained and if I was injured by this process, it would be my fault and my responsibility to take action to prevent such an occurrence from being repeated.

Even my level of autism is only classified as moderate. But that doesn't necessary matter as those with mild autism can still experience severe meltdowns and shutdowns. I also have severe dysparixa aka developmental coordination disorder (DCD), which has made my walking so out of whack, my right leg got screwed up while I was growing to the point where I need to wear a brace. And if the brace doesn't correct the problem, eventually I'll require surgery. Some people based on how I walk and move conclude I have cerebral palsy. And I supposed according to the philosophy I was presented with, both myself and those who have CP are also responsible for how their limbs respond.

Have you ever been prescribed gabapentin? It is works on nerves and I was prescribed it for sciatica. It works great for that, but what I didn't expect and was thrilled to discover was that gabapentin radically improved my motor coordination. For the first time in my life I feel as though I have control of my body. If you get the chance, I recommend giving it a try, it might help.

And what exactly are those steps and according to which expert of the subject?



That's you. That's what works for you. It doesn't apply to everyone else. I've run into this before. I may be young, but I've been around this block many times. The biggest problem regarding such medications such as Quetiapine aka Seroquel which is actually an antipshchotic designed for the treatment of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, outside of the fact that they aren't designed to treat severe autistic meltdown, are the side effects and adverse effects that come from taking them as they are a medication to control brain chemistry, rather then the brain's neurology. The same goes for antiseizure medications and SSRI's. And also, being under the control of a drug has nothing to do with control or responsibly over a condition. This is especially true of children, especially teenagers. I've been through all this stuff with doctors my entire life and know an entire school's worth of autistics who have as well.

And yeah, it wold have helped if you had "whined about my experiences with meltdowns" ie provided something tangible instead of sounding like you were just making up nonsense.



No, it would not.

Last edited by EzraS on 22 Dec 2016, 12:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

It appears to me some people lack empathy. They may not understand it or it just doesn't fir in with their peosonal philosophy. It's doubtful these people can or will change into more understanding persons.

The question we're discussing is whether or not this young man was capable of caring for himself or whether the , supposedly capable, "school", that accepted this person was responsible for his safety and care while in/under their control.

I'd imagine there would be no problem finding an attorney to handle the case for this young man's family. If this school were being compensated somehow for the time this young man was in their care, then they are responsible.

If melt-downs are a common occurrence then they should have taken the proper approved measures to ensure this kind of thing will be controlled properly...they obviously were NOT properly prepared for this occurrence and THIS is what allowed this man's death to happen.

People who try to blame such occurrences on sick people, and their illness, are definitely lacking in understanding and human compassion.

I agree 100% Ezra...this person has no understanding or personal experience, regardless the protestations.



Why would someone with an ounce of understanding say such a thing?

So if some kid, 6 years old, 8, 12, etc., a kid that has been taken in by this "School" has a problem...say a meltdown of some type, then while the kid (is going through this difficult period) their instructors are free to grab him by the neck (or whatever) and kill him/her? This is very ignorant sounding. There must be something in this ignorant person's background that causes this.

"If I attacked someone in the midst of a meltdown... Did anyone say people were attacked the way you describe???? You're making this up.

If "YOU?" If YOU were on the street and attacked someone then your chances of death might increase, but in a school with trained staff, being PAID for gosh sake, for your CARE. Anyone with your attitude needs a dose of reality...I hope you don't get it.

If the workers were even responsible for it. I've known of one kid who died from sudden cardiac arrest and another who died from a cerebral hemorrhage and another from a severe asthma attack. But I suppose that was their fault for not taking the proper steps to control those outcomes. And since when is a teenager, especially one who might be severely autistic, supposed to be responsible for their condition, especially on the level of 46 year old adult?



Yeah I really don't see "he asked for it" being a plausible defense at my school if they committed manslaughter in performing their job, which at least in my school, they have to be highly trained for.

Last edited by EzraS on 22 Dec 2016, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I really find it sad that you guys need to attack my character to support your views. I do not lack human compassion and ZenDen I take offense at your suggesting that I do.