Restrained Autistic Student dies on bus

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EzraS
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23 Dec 2016, 2:20 am

androbot01 wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

Well then, why can't you give Ezra, and the boy in the OP, a little more le'eway?

Why? There's nothing wrong with having your point of view challenged. Believe me, I know.

How poorly one presents their point of view has a lot to do with that.

androbot01 wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Then why are you suggesting the 18 year old who died, should be as responsible as you are now?

We are all responsible for our behaviour regardless of age. Everyone screws up and does things that bring them bad consequences, it's part of being human. But that doesn't mean you don't try. And when the consequences are as grave as in the case presented in this thread, all the more reason to try to avoid them.

This personal philosophy of yours doesn't deal with the subject, not to mention the legal aspects, of culpability. It's really not credible to deal with real life events from inside the confines of your own little world.

androbot01 wrote:

Campin_Cat wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

Sweetie... This thread should be a valuable lesson to you regarding this.

I'm thinking you didn't mean for your statements to come-across, condescendingly----but, that's the way they "felt", to ME (and, apparently, Ezra feels the same way, because of the way he has responded to you----like, calling you "Pumpkin", after you called him "Sweetie").

Isn't that second quote regarding the "washed up" remark in the Celebrities' thread?

It was indeed a valuable lesson in not letting myself get swept up and derailed by ridiculous reactions.

androbot01 wrote:

Anyway, Ezra can handle himself, as is evidenced by his "Pumpkin' retort.

androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 6:18 am

EzraS wrote:

...It's really not credible to deal with real life events from inside the confines of your own little world.

Sure, marginalization. Much easier than to accept fault. I am not the only one in a little world.

I am forced to say bluntly that if one cannot control one's physical attacks on others, then the consequences will be physical. This issue to me is an example of the disabled expecting too much from society, or to put it another way, Special Snowflake Syndrome. No one is so special that it's okay that they unpredictably attack other people. I believe that there are steps to take to avoid physical meltdowns, including medication. Not to use a tool that helps with such a condition is selfish. However, if these physical meltdowns cannot be controlled then one shouldn't be surprised when something like this unfortunate death occurs. Obviously the preceding comments are my own view and will surely be seen as heartless, but I think it is more heartless to ignore reality.

EzraS
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23 Dec 2016, 9:26 am

androbot01 wrote:

EzraS wrote:

...It's really not credible to deal with real life events from inside the confines of your own little world.

Does this philosophy apply to grand mal seizures as well?

CockneyRebel
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23 Dec 2016, 9:46 am

androbot01 wrote:

I don't see any reason to assume that prescribed precautions weren't taken with this kid. Maybe they can improve on them, but I doubt there's much new ground to be covered regarding restraint holds.

So it's okay that a special needs child was killed because he was defending himself on the bus. I disagree.

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androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 10:06 am

EzraS wrote:

Does this philosophy apply to grand mal seizures as well?

I had a grand mal seizure back when I was in university. So I know that one is unconscious during a seizure. The people who were with me at the time put me on the floor away from any chairs and tables until it was over. This is different from someone acting aggressively. A person having a seizure is not acting aggressively and can be put in a safe space so as not to injure themselves or others. But an aggressive person is a threat to those around them.

CockneyRebel wrote:

So it's okay that a special needs child was killed because he was defending himself on the bus. I disagree.

I would call it an unfortunate reality. A sad one, but not one involving fault.

ASPartOfMe
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23 Dec 2016, 10:35 am

There are thousands upon thousands of interactions where a violent person is subdued and lived through it.

In this case, the lack of information for me is suggestive of a cover up.

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androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 11:20 am

Just want to add a note of recommendation for the movie, "Silver Linings Playbook," a 2012 movie starring Jennifer Lawrence, Bradley Cooper and Robert De Niro.:

IMDB: Silver Linings Playbook

The characters suffer from various mental illnesses and the movie follows their progress as they try to cope with them.

EzraS
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23 Dec 2016, 11:35 am

androbot01 wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Does this philosophy apply to grand mal seizures as well?

The bottom line is, according to your philosophy, if some idiot sticks a wooden spoon in the mouth of someone having a grand mal seizure, so they don't "swallow their tongue", and the victim chokes to death, then that's the consequences for them having a seizure and therefore they are responsible for what happened.

Acting aggressively involuntarily due to a neurological malfunction, is along the same lines of someone going into convulsions involuntarily due to a neurological malfunction. In both cases this person is known as a victim. Not a perpetrator, but a victim.

Last edited by EzraS on 23 Dec 2016, 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 11:42 am

I guess we agree to disagree then.

ZenDen
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23 Dec 2016, 11:54 am

androbot01 wrote:

I really find it sad that you guys need to attack my character to support your views. I do not lack human compassion and ZenDen I take offense at your suggesting that I do.

If you show compassion in your posts then people think: "Now there is a person with a lot of compassion."

If you do not show compassion (perhaps even the opposite?) then people think: "Now there is a person who does NOT show much compassion."

To some people here you sound like the second example. But it's only our opinion, just as YOU have an opinion.

I did not castigate you for your opinion...it's your opinion and the way you live your life; but I don't have to live my life your way, and I think my way shows I have other people's lives in mind and not the welfare of some negligent "school", as you seem to prefer.

If you think we are not showing YOU enough compassion then please re-examine the morality of your position? Whatever you do -be proud- of what you do...if others misunderstand you it's THEIR loss, not yours.

Because we could be misunderstanding you completely.......but it's up to YOU to show us where we "missed the boat."

Just saying the words: "I have compassion" won't get you far. And I'm sure you would agree that for many using this phrase, it's just "lip service." It's one of those things others actually have to see in another person before they can take it to heart.

Last edited by ZenDen on 23 Dec 2016, 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 12:06 pm

ZenDen wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

I really find it sad that you guys need to attack my character to support your views. I do not lack human compassion and ZenDen I take offense at your suggesting that I do.

My compassion or lack thereof is not relevant to this discussion.

I do not expect to be judged by this thread alone and my back hurts too much to be jumping through hoops for approval.

ZenDen
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23 Dec 2016, 12:18 pm

androbot01 wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

I really find it sad that you guys need to attack my character to support your views. I do not lack human compassion and ZenDen I take offense at your suggesting that I do.

My compassion or lack thereof is not relevant to this discussion.

I do not expect to be judged by this thread alone and my back hurts too much to be jumping through hoops for approval.

If you're unable or unwilling to explain your position then you can stop posting at any time.

And your "compassion or lack thereof" DOES become relevant when you post your positions on a subject, how could you think otherwise? It's when you DON"T post to a subject that your personal stance becomes unimportant.

P.S. If you wish to alter your position during a conversation it's OK o do so...I and others in this thread have done so when expedient. It's not wrong to learn and grow.

EzraS
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23 Dec 2016, 12:30 pm

This discussion going around in circles is the result of a false premise being argued.

androbot01
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23 Dec 2016, 12:33 pm

ZenDen wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

I really find it sad that you guys need to attack my character to support your views. I do not lack human compassion and ZenDen I take offense at your suggesting that I do.

My compassion or lack thereof is not relevant to this discussion.

I do not expect to be judged by this thread alone and my back hurts too much to be jumping through hoops for approval.

I have changed my position over the course of a thread a few times over the years. Once with Dox who presented an argument for gun rights that I could not disagree with. But not so in this one.

Obviously it's tragic when someone dies in this fashion, but violence begets violence.

EzraS
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23 Dec 2016, 6:17 pm

androbot01 wrote:

Obviously it's tragic when someone dies in this fashion, but violence begets violence.

You must be trolling.

kraftiekortie
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23 Dec 2016, 6:22 pm

I feel that a person died needlessly.

The person might have been violent, might have been having a meltdown---but it's not like the person deserved to die. He didn't commit some heinous crime.

What should have happened is the use of proper restraints, and training in how to use these "proper restraints."

I feel people should explore more ways to effectively restrain somebody which doesn't cut off breathing.

This sort of thing is happening too often. It's because breathing is obstructed.

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