Even the Maya are getting sick of 2012 hype

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sinsboldly
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11 Oct 2009, 12:49 pm

Apocalypse Next? Experts trace fears to modern, not ancient sources

By Mark Stevenson Associated Press
7:34 p.m. PT, Sat., Oct . 10, 2009

MEXICO CITY - Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month, Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

At Cornell University, Ann Martin, who runs the "Ask an Astronomer" Web site, says people are scared.

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die," Martin said. "We had a mother of two young children who was afraid she wouldn't live to see them grow up."

Chile Pixtun, a Guatemalan, says the doomsday theories spring from Western, not Mayan, ideas.

A significant time period for the Maya does end on the date, and enthusiasts have found a series of astronomical alignments they say coincide in 2012, including one that happens roughly only once every 25,800 years.

But most archaeologists, astronomers and Maya Indians say the only thing likely to hit Earth is a meteor shower of New Age philosophy, pop astronomy, Internet doomsday rumors and TV specials — such as one on the History Channel that mixes predictions from Nostradamus and the Maya and asks: "Is 2012 the year the cosmic clock finally winds down to zero days, zero hope?"

Grains of truth
It may sound all too much like other doomsday scenarios of recent decades — the 1987 Harmonic Convergence, the Jupiter Effect or "Planet X." But this one has some grains of archaeological truth.

One of them is Monument Six.

Found at an obscure ruin in southern Mexico during highway construction in the 1960s, the stone tablet almost didn't survive; the site was largely paved over, and parts of the tablet were looted.

It's unique in that the remaining parts contain the equivalent of the date 2012. The inscription describes something that is supposed to occur in 2012 involving Bolon Yokte, a mysterious Mayan god associated with both war and creation.

However — shades of Indiana Jones — erosion and a crack in the stone make the end of the passage almost illegible.

Archaeologist Guillermo Bernal of Mexico's National Autonomous University interprets the last eroded glyphs as maybe saying, "He will descend from the sky."

Spooky, perhaps, but Bernal notes there are other inscriptions at Maya sites for dates far beyond 2012 — including one that roughly translates into the year 4772.

And anyway, the Maya in the drought-stricken Yucatan peninsula have bigger worries than 2012.

"If I went to some Mayan-speaking communities and asked people what is going to happen in 2012, they wouldn't have any idea," said Jose Huchim, a Yucatan Mayan archaeologist. "That the world is going to end? They wouldn't believe you. We have real concerns these days, like rain."

Talent for astronomy
The Maya civilization, which reached its height from the year 300 to 900, had a talent for astronomy.

Its Long Count calendar begins in 3114 B.C., marking time in roughly 394-year periods known as Baktuns. Thirteen was a significant, sacred number for the Maya, and the 13th Baktun ends around Dec. 21, 2012.

"It's a special anniversary of creation," said David Stuart, a specialist in Mayan epigraphy at the University of Texas at Austin. "The Maya never said the world is going to end, they never said anything bad would happen necessarily, they're just recording this future anniversary on Monument Six."

Bernal suggests that apocalypse is "a very Western, Christian" concept projected onto the Maya, perhaps because Western myths are "exhausted."

What about the galactic alignment?
If it were all mythology, perhaps it could be written off.

But some say the Maya knew another secret: the Earth's axis wobbles, slightly changing the alignment of the stars every year. Once every 25,800 years, the sun lines up with the center of our Milky Way galaxy on a winter solstice, the sun's lowest point in the horizon.

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

Another spooky coincidence?

"The question I would ask these guys is, so what?" says Phil Plait, an astronomer who runs the "Bad Astronomy" blog. He says the alignment doesn't fall precisely in 2012, and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

"They're really super-duper trying to find anything astronomical they can to fit that date of 2012," Plait said.

Time of transformation?
But author John Major Jenkins says his two-decade study of Mayan ruins indicate the Maya were aware of the alignment and attached great importance to it.

"If we want to honor and respect how the Maya think about this, then we would say that the Maya viewed 2012, as all cycle endings, as a time of transformation and renewal," said Jenkins.

As the Internet gained popularity in the 1990s, so did word of the "fateful" date, and some began worrying about 2012 disasters the Mayas never dreamed of.

Author Lawrence Joseph says a peak in explosive storms on the surface of the sun could knock out North America's power grid for years, triggering food shortages, water scarcity — a collapse of civilization. Solar peaks occur about every 11 years, but Joseph says there's evidence the 2012 peak could be "a lulu."

While pressing governments to install protection for power grids, Joseph counsels readers not to "use 2012 as an excuse to not live in a healthy, responsible fashion. I mean, don't let the credit cards go up."

What about a pole shift?
Another History Channel program titled "Decoding the Past: Doomsday 2012: End of Days" says a galactic alignment or magnetic disturbances could somehow trigger a "pole shift."

"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th-century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Scientists say that, at best, the poles might change location by one degree over a million years, with no sign that it would start in 2012.

While long discredited, Brasseur de Bourbourg proves one thing: Westerners have been trying for more than a century to pin doomsday scenarios on the Maya. And while fascinated by ancient lore, advocates seldom examine more recent experiences with apocalypse predictions.

"No one who's writing in now seems to remember that the last time we thought the world was going to end, it didn't," says Martin, the astronomy Webmaster. "There doesn't seem to be a lot of memory that things were fine the last time around."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33261483/ns ... -science//


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Willard
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11 Oct 2009, 1:56 pm

Quote:
"No one who's writing in now seems to remember that the last time we thought the world was going to end, it didn't," says Martin, the astronomy Webmaster. "There doesn't seem to be a lot of memory that things were fine the last time around."



Yeah
- but how is that proof that it isn't going to end THIS TIME? 8O


Actually, the whole 'shifting Earth crust' notion Graham Hancock also tied in with the Sphinx and the Great Pyramid and he also came up with the date of 2012 (or was that 2032?). I remember reading a novel back in the mid-Seventies based on the idea, called The HAB Theory. The scary part of this concept of a sudden and dramatic shift in the position of the Earth's crust, as it slides across the mantle underneath, is that entire continents would end up at completely different positions on the globe relative to the magnetic poles.

Evidence indicates that the position of Magnetic North has, indeed, changed several times over the history of the planet.

This kind of cataclysmic shift would explain how temperate climate Mammoths have been found quick-frozen, embedded in Siberian glaciers with undigested food still in their mouths and stomachs.

It would also explain why Antarctica, buried for millenia under miles of ice, shows archeological and geological evidence of having once had a lush tropical climate. Fossilized insects (in Antarctica?-yes) as well as plants and plant seeds indicate so.

Then there are all the Atlantis-Noah myths from around the globe and oh, yes - the ANCIENT CITIES rising out of the ocean just off the coast of India the past couple years.

I don't claim to know what might or might not happen, but they called Velikovski crazy, too, and yet - there's that asteroid field floating just this side of Mars, little atmosphere or water left on a planet that by all rationale ought to be as lush as ours and a large dent in the side of our own dear Terra. Not to mention the (non-existent) Face monument and numerous pyramids on what is now a lifeless sand dune.

And it makes me wonder... :chin:




:help: :bounce: The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Y2K is coming and we're all gonna die! :bounce: :help:



Or was that last week? :duh:



gina-ghettoprincess
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11 Oct 2009, 2:03 pm

@ Willard
That's continental drift, it happens slowly, not suddenly.


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11 Oct 2009, 2:17 pm

I imagine they would be among the first to get sick of it.



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11 Oct 2009, 2:36 pm

Willard wrote:
I don't claim to know what might or might not happen, but they called Velikovski crazy, too, and yet - there's that asteroid field floating just this side of Mars, :chin:






Velikovsky was a crackpot.

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11 Oct 2009, 3:03 pm

Oh my God! My calendar runs out on December 31st!! The world will end at the end of the year!! !!

Velikovskiy didn't even know the difference between a hydrocarbon and a carbohydrate (part of his crackpot "theory" was that the manna from Heaven cited in Exodus was created by hydrocarbons falling from Venus' atmosphere as it careened madly about the Solar System, and crystallizing as carbohydrates. Um, yeah). So yes, he's still regarded as a nutbar who wouldn't know celestial mechanics from Mr. Goodwrench.

Mars is cold and dry because its mass is not sufficient to hang onto a significant atmosphere so close to the Sun - it lost atmosphere to the solar winds. The asteroids exist because Jupiter got so damn massive, it would gravitationally disrupt any gathering in the next orbit in that threatened to coalesce into an actual planet. (See Bode's Law for why a planet would try to coalesce there anyway; it also tells you how the asteroids were first discovered.) It's quite possible that Mars' size can also be accounted for by Jovian gravitational interference - remember that the orbit of Mars is actually slightly closer to that of Jupiter than Saturn's is.


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11 Oct 2009, 3:23 pm

The 'maya's', that is the very primitive indians now living in yucatan and guatemala, are of course not responsible for the very advanced ancient architecture there: this was build by another people.



Willard
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11 Oct 2009, 4:26 pm

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
@ Willard
That's continental drift, it happens slowly, not suddenly.



No, dear, I'm not talking about Continental Drift. 'Drift' implies gradual motion. I'm referring to an event that would be sudden and catastrophic - if indeed, it were certain, likely, or even possible. It's just an idea.

Just ideas. That's all there are, until after events have taken place. Humans theorize endlessly and postulate so-called FACTS until they're blue in the face, and inevitably, a new model comes along and the whole database has to be reevaluated. Yet, there's always a panel of Knowitalls ready to leap into the breach, certain that they know the ultimate truth, which shall stand for all time. ::yawn::

All absolute knowledge is fiction.




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gina-ghettoprincess
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11 Oct 2009, 4:38 pm

Willard wrote:
gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
@ Willard
That's continental drift, it happens slowly, not suddenly.



No, dear, I'm not talking about Continental Drift. 'Drift' implies gradual motion. I'm referring to an event that would be sudden and catastrophic - if indeed, it were certain, likely, or even possible. It's just an idea.


Well, the things you described are easily explained by continental drift, not by a sudden movement of the earth's crust.


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11 Oct 2009, 11:08 pm

Did anyone miss the part where the article says that the Maya made a reference to the year 4772? Even the Maya believe time and life will go on.


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11 Oct 2009, 11:20 pm

people have been predicting the end of the world for a looooooooooong time.



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12 Oct 2009, 12:41 am

John_Browning wrote:
Did anyone miss the part where the article says that the Maya made a reference to the year 4772? Even the Maya believe time and life will go on.


the crux of the matter seems to be the hieroglyphics indicating the time dynamics change ever X amount of years. 2012 was just the last year of those hieroglyphs for that age. There was a set of hieroglyphs for the age before this last one, and one was set up for the age after 2012.
I remember reading this in a scholarly journal and I have searched long and hard online for the reference, but have not found it, so I can't prove it.


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12 Oct 2009, 7:47 am

DeaconBlues wrote:
Oh my God! My calendar runs out on December 31st!! The world will end at the end of the year!! !!

:lmao:



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12 Oct 2009, 7:57 am

sinsboldly wrote:
Apocalypse Next? Experts trace fears to modern, not ancient sources

By Mark Stevenson Associated Press
7:34 p.m. PT, Sat., Oct . 10, 2009

MEXICO CITY - Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month, Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

At Cornell University, Ann Martin, who runs the "Ask an Astronomer" Web site, says people are scared.

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die," Martin said. "We had a mother of two young children who was afraid she wouldn't live to see them grow up."

Chile Pixtun, a Guatemalan, says the doomsday theories spring from Western, not Mayan, ideas.

A significant time period for the Maya does end on the date, and enthusiasts have found a series of astronomical alignments they say coincide in 2012, including one that happens roughly only once every 25,800 years.

But most archaeologists, astronomers and Maya Indians say the only thing likely to hit Earth is a meteor shower of New Age philosophy, pop astronomy, Internet doomsday rumors and TV specials — such as one on the History Channel that mixes predictions from Nostradamus and the Maya and asks: "Is 2012 the year the cosmic clock finally winds down to zero days, zero hope?"

Grains of truth
It may sound all too much like other doomsday scenarios of recent decades — the 1987 Harmonic Convergence, the Jupiter Effect or "Planet X." But this one has some grains of archaeological truth.

One of them is Monument Six.

Found at an obscure ruin in southern Mexico during highway construction in the 1960s, the stone tablet almost didn't survive; the site was largely paved over, and parts of the tablet were looted.

It's unique in that the remaining parts contain the equivalent of the date 2012. The inscription describes something that is supposed to occur in 2012 involving Bolon Yokte, a mysterious Mayan god associated with both war and creation.

However — shades of Indiana Jones — erosion and a crack in the stone make the end of the passage almost illegible.

Archaeologist Guillermo Bernal of Mexico's National Autonomous University interprets the last eroded glyphs as maybe saying, "He will descend from the sky."

Spooky, perhaps, but Bernal notes there are other inscriptions at Maya sites for dates far beyond 2012 — including one that roughly translates into the year 4772.

And anyway, the Maya in the drought-stricken Yucatan peninsula have bigger worries than 2012.

"If I went to some Mayan-speaking communities and asked people what is going to happen in 2012, they wouldn't have any idea," said Jose Huchim, a Yucatan Mayan archaeologist. "That the world is going to end? They wouldn't believe you. We have real concerns these days, like rain."

Talent for astronomy
The Maya civilization, which reached its height from the year 300 to 900, had a talent for astronomy.

Its Long Count calendar begins in 3114 B.C., marking time in roughly 394-year periods known as Baktuns. Thirteen was a significant, sacred number for the Maya, and the 13th Baktun ends around Dec. 21, 2012.

"It's a special anniversary of creation," said David Stuart, a specialist in Mayan epigraphy at the University of Texas at Austin. "The Maya never said the world is going to end, they never said anything bad would happen necessarily, they're just recording this future anniversary on Monument Six."

Bernal suggests that apocalypse is "a very Western, Christian" concept projected onto the Maya, perhaps because Western myths are "exhausted."

What about the galactic alignment?
If it were all mythology, perhaps it could be written off.

But some say the Maya knew another secret: the Earth's axis wobbles, slightly changing the alignment of the stars every year. Once every 25,800 years, the sun lines up with the center of our Milky Way galaxy on a winter solstice, the sun's lowest point in the horizon.

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

Another spooky coincidence?

"The question I would ask these guys is, so what?" says Phil Plait, an astronomer who runs the "Bad Astronomy" blog. He says the alignment doesn't fall precisely in 2012, and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

"They're really super-duper trying to find anything astronomical they can to fit that date of 2012," Plait said.

Time of transformation?
But author John Major Jenkins says his two-decade study of Mayan ruins indicate the Maya were aware of the alignment and attached great importance to it.

"If we want to honor and respect how the Maya think about this, then we would say that the Maya viewed 2012, as all cycle endings, as a time of transformation and renewal," said Jenkins.

As the Internet gained popularity in the 1990s, so did word of the "fateful" date, and some began worrying about 2012 disasters the Mayas never dreamed of.

Author Lawrence Joseph says a peak in explosive storms on the surface of the sun could knock out North America's power grid for years, triggering food shortages, water scarcity — a collapse of civilization. Solar peaks occur about every 11 years, but Joseph says there's evidence the 2012 peak could be "a lulu."

While pressing governments to install protection for power grids, Joseph counsels readers not to "use 2012 as an excuse to not live in a healthy, responsible fashion. I mean, don't let the credit cards go up."

What about a pole shift?
Another History Channel program titled "Decoding the Past: Doomsday 2012: End of Days" says a galactic alignment or magnetic disturbances could somehow trigger a "pole shift."

"The entire mantle of the earth would shift in a matter of days, perhaps hours, changing the position of the north and south poles, causing worldwide disaster," a narrator proclaims. "Earthquakes would rock every continent, massive tsunamis would inundate coastal cities. It would be the ultimate planetary catastrophe."

The idea apparently originates with a 19th-century Frenchman, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg, a priest-turned-archaeologist who got it from his study of ancient Mayan and Aztec texts.

Scientists say that, at best, the poles might change location by one degree over a million years, with no sign that it would start in 2012.

While long discredited, Brasseur de Bourbourg proves one thing: Westerners have been trying for more than a century to pin doomsday scenarios on the Maya. And while fascinated by ancient lore, advocates seldom examine more recent experiences with apocalypse predictions.

"No one who's writing in now seems to remember that the last time we thought the world was going to end, it didn't," says Martin, the astronomy Webmaster. "There doesn't seem to be a lot of memory that things were fine the last time around."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33261483/ns ... -science//


This is exactly what I was thinking.


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12 Oct 2009, 9:26 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
@ Willard
That's continental drift, it happens slowly, not suddenly.
The earth crust displacement theory is something different. You should look it up.



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13 Oct 2009, 4:48 am

I wish I was a Mayan.

I would write some bogus book full of mumbo jumbo and make more money than the Davinci Code. :D