Is Suicide Wrong?

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I never said my experience was universal. I've shared it specifically because it's unique, not universal. But I do believe it can help more than just me. You're right, it is great to feel good. I never suggested that someone who doesn't read Burns or adjust their diet deserves their depression. Don't put words in my mouth. I've suggested that they try these things if they've exhausted other options that haven't worked for them and want to see if these things can work for them as they have me. Doesn't make sense to me to not want to try something/anything different to see if it helps. Some try pharmaceuticals (I did) for relief, others meditation, exercise, CBT or any variety of other things - including dietary changes & natural medicine. If everything else someone has tried still hasn't gotten them anywhere, I don't really see the logic in being rigidly opposed to trying something like changing diet & using epsom salts on your skin and taking probiotics etc. Or the logic in not trying other things, like CBT or exercise or meditation etc. Whichever method, even one not listed here, ends up working for you and letting you feel better - fantastic! Go with it.

But it just doesn't make sense to me to do as you've always done and get as you've always got" & continue being depressed when there are still other options to try. I suppose one differentiating factor is that I maintained a will to get better. It used to be motivated by my love for others in my life more than anything, but now that I'm thinking clearer and feeling better it's ever more motivated by my love for myself. It's a very simple little thing, but one of the most powerful concepts I took away from "Feeling Good" was that I deserve to be treated just as well by myself as I would treat my best friends. I'd always do things out of love for them, so why not do things out of love for me? Sometimes it's big picture motivation stuff, other times I might catch myself denying myself something and then think "f**k that, I'd give that to ____ in a heartbeat, so I deserve it, too."

I really don't get the whole everyone elses not being slightly upset for a while is more important then someone continuing to suffer.

so a person should live a pointless and awful existence just so you/others don't have to be sad for a little while. most people move on after a death in the family. might be a year or a week or years, but eventually they move on. if you ask me that's selfish to expect someone else to suffer for their whole life so you don't have to suffer for a bit. and yet people say its selfish for someone to kill themselves. plus most those people won't do s**t to help the depressed person besides complain that their being depressed ruins their happiness and they should stop but don't kill yourself, just magically fix yourself so I can keep living my wonderful life. meh, f**k that.

I don't like people who want their cake and eat it too. just like the far right, get off gov aid but don't kill yourself. but if you kick them off they going die, but you don't want them to die. life doesn't work that way you can't have everything you want. its cruel to expect another person to suffer so you can enjoy life.

Society codes suicide as "wrong" and/or "immoral" for two reasons.

(1) The long-term security of an unjust society depends upon its oppressed members internalizing a form of discipline which prohibits them from using suicide attacks* against the strong.

(2) You cannot compel economic participation from the dead.

* Note that I use the term "suicide attacks" pretty broadly; so while this would obviously include e.g. suicide bombers and kamikaze pilots, it could also encompass e.g. Leelah Alcorn's death as a suicide attack against transphobia.

It's not just for a while. People don't let go of their grieving over a suicide like they do a natural death. It can haunt some people for the rest of their lives, always wondering if there was something they could have or should have done to prevent it. Suicide torments loved ones whether you think it does or not.

And people don't expect people to magically not be depressed. That's why they suggest methods of trying to beat depression. Therapy, medication, exercise, diet etc. There are many methods. People just have to try them until they find what works for them.

I've never considered myself bipolar, but as I wrote in my story I do/have had traits. A couple others in my life said they thought I might be bipolar in the past vs. HFA. Maybe I'd qualify for both? I don't know nor care, really, because at the present moment (and over the last year and a half or two) I've had my symptoms very well under control and am happier and healthier than the rest of my life combined. I'm doing well on my own and don't need diagnoses nor medical intervention to carry on doing well.

I am grateful I'm better. I express that gratitude to the people I learned what I needed to from as often as I can. Sure, a lot of it was my own relentless reading & research and will to improve, but I wouldn't have been pointed in the right direction if it weren't for meeting my closest friend & his father. I spoiled them and the rest of their immediate family again at Christmas time this year. I think they're beginning to finally understand just how grateful I am and why.

Have you tried detoxing salicylate acids? A healthier diet? Probiotics? If not, you can't possibly know that what worked for me won't work for you. It was a simple matter of cutting out SA's from my diet and using epsom salts on my skin that all but cleared up the worst depression of my life in a matter of 5 days. Then in the weeks and months that followed, I continued to improve.

I haven't assumed you're not trying. On that note, what have you tried & has it helped any? If nothing you've tried has helped, what are you planning on trying next?

As my signature says.. Just because you don't believe me doesn't make me a liar. You're welcome to try what I've tried and see if it works for you. Feel free to pm w/ any questions.

Oh, and a side note.. earlier you posted that you didn't think I was ever clinically depressed. Just because I'm not now doesn't mean I wasn't. I have evidence of it as I never burned or threw out the journal book I wrote my CBT in 3 Summers ago. I've never re-read it, but I know whats in there.. almost every depressing thought I had for weeks on end, and my logical CBT refutals to them. It's deeply personal stuff, so I won't be posting it here, but I've kept it as a reminder of how far I've come as well as of evidence of my past condition that I can present to a doctor should there ever be a need when discussing my history. Not because I think I will relapse into a dark place in my headspace, but rather to show how I was and how far I've come.

It's not really a matter of "right" or "wrong," in my opinion. It's certainly a drastic action that causes a lot of pain to those we leave behind. Like you, I wouldn't want to inflict that kind of suffering on my mother and what remains of my family. But if I'm being totally honest, I have many days, recently, when I really wished I could just snap my fingers and disappear forever. What I'm dealing with at the moment is an endless assignment of taking care of an elderly parent who is becoming more and more incapable of performing the simplest of tasks. It's an emotional drain that is sucking the life out of me. But I still keep going and hope for a better day.

I tend to agree. That said when possible its best to find how to stop the suffering than just expect someone to endure it indefinitely on their own. I mean of course I am not saying suicide is the cure to all pain and misery, but what do people expect one to do if their options seem to be suffer indefinitely but don't bother other people with your whining about it...or off yourself? Obviously the latter starts to look more appealing....I am glad I have found a couple things that help otherwise not so sure I'd still be here.

It's so hard to look after someone when you're struggling yourself. Sometimes my body feels like a ball and chain.

But sometimes nothing works and you just have to live with it.

It's definitely hard, some days. I feel somewhat guilty, too, for feeling sorry for myself. It's a hell of a lot harder what my mother has to deal with everyday.

Also, those things do not always help....some therapy helps some while it does nothing for others. A popular kind of therapy for Depression is CBT, I've gone through plenty of that and it doesn't do anything for me, I've tried numerous medications which have all done nothing, I certainly am not lacking in exercise since I don't drive and have to walk/bus(which includes walking to bus stops and from stops to places) to go anywhere. As for diet I eat fairly healthy, though my PTSD and GAD interfere with appetite and digestion so it can be hard to eat enough. Not everyone can up and 'beat their depression' like people expect.

Also of course suicide is difficult for anyone who cares about that person, but you cannot say the pain they feel is any greater than the pain that drove the individual to suicide....and to suggest suicide is 'selfish' does seem to down-play the pain the suicidal person was feeling that drove them to that. A

lso there is the bit about selfish usually means doing something because you care more about yourself than anyone else well newsflash suicide is unhealthy..it causes death hello, so there isn't really a benefit from committing suicide other than ending pain and it is sad when its possible there may have been another way to alleviate the pain. I think though a lot of people who cared about someone who committed suicide have worked through it and are still getting on with their own life as well...though I do not doubt in many cases it can haunt the ones who care for the rest of their life especially if they blame themselves and don't get help/support to realize its not their fault and that there is nothing they could have said that would have gotten rid of that persons pain. Still do not think moral judgments can be passed on such things.

I don't believe that nothing will work for anyone. They just haven't found what works for them yet.

It's like the old anecdote about Thomas Edison failing to make a light bulb thousands of times.. he didn't fail, he just found thousands of ways that didn't work before he found one that did. Persistence & perseverance are key. Just keep trying things you haven't tried yet and see if they work for you.

There is something called getting burnt out....sometimes people run out of motivation and energy to keep 'trying something else' again and again and again indefinitely. Some people get burnt out quicker than others, what would you recommend about that issue when someone simply does not have it in them to keep going because they are spent and done...don't have anything left to put into it. This is a very real feeling many people experience, so sometimes 'just try something else' isn't really practical...if that makes any sense. Not sure if you have had that exact feeling or not.

As I've shared, I put myself through CBT. It didn't work. I learned a lot from it, but my depression scores continued to get worse - not better. That was the value in it for me, though. I realized that it wasn't working and that something must be making it worse. I just had to figure out what it was. My life has been a bit like an extended episode of House where I've been both the patient and diagnostician. I continued learning and trying new things until I figured out the environmental/dietary chemical causes of my depression & how to treat them.

I've also taken antidepressant meds in the past. For years. Sometimes they helped, or helped for a while, other times not so much. I haven't taken any pharmaceuticals for more than 2 years now as I no longer have a need for them. But, as much as I didn't want to take them, I was willing to try them to see if they helped when I needed it.

I always ate "fairly healthy," too. But it was a combination of diet, years of antibiotics inducing intestinal dysbiosis, and other things that led to my terrible state. Even "healthy" things I was eating were quite literally poisoning me when I was very sensitive to salicylate acids. (Veggies, herbs, oils, fruits etc.) I can now consume them in large quantities no problem. I attribute this to continuing to use epsom salts to detox them, as well as having cleared out and healed my digestive tract/intestinal lining, which is said to reduce the sensitivity to the acids once the gut is no longer so perforated and "leaky." I can't prove the claims of Naturopaths & don't know the exact mechanisms for my own healing for sure, all I know is that I am in WAY better shape now for having done this so by whatever means it's worked for me, it's worked for me.

The suicide of a loved one is horrific, there are so many unknowns that can haunt the people left behind that makes healing and recovery a prolonged and extremely difficult experience. Conventionally, it's wrong to hurt those who love you, I think suicide is as a result of extreme torment, the point where a person can not tolerate the pain any longer. The agony they must experience is something to be escaped, and not something to be judged as a simplistic right or wrong.
What if you haven't got anyone who cares about you? What then? Where is the motivation?

I agree with your perspective.

And sometimes there is nothing that will help. I'm lucky in that antidepressants keep me mobile, but if not for them I would be lost.