Internet fights and personal integrety.

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I'm putting this post here in the haven because I would like thoughtful answers, and not sarcasm. I was involved recently in a WP thread where someone was being a little mean and I spoke up. She was coming here not as a autistic person or a parent of an autistic person, but as an ABA practitioner who is very enthusiastic about ABA. I warned her in a way that I thought was gentle that ABA is a subject that is going to get her a lot of heat around here. But her response was a vague threat to self-injure herself. Looking back, I'm wondering if this woman is an undiagnosed autistic herself. (Obviously, no-one can diagnose that online, but it came up as a question when I was thinking about it later.) It spurred 5 pages so far of people yelling at each other. Lots of sarcasm. Lots of condescension. YUCK! That is not what I want my internet forum experience to be.

If someone is being kind of a jerk to me, but I can see that they are emotionally fragile, what is my responsibility in that situation? On one hand, we have standing up for one's self. On the other hand, we have the fact that a fragile person isn't going to be able to respond anyway but badly.

On a higher level, what is the BEST action to take? Like, not just what's acceptable, but what is best to do?

There is always just letting it go - ignoring the problem. But I've also noticed how that can become a real problem, too. First off, I think it sends ME a subconscious message that treating me like that is OK. Secondly, I worry about the person moving on to other people, and spreading the abuse. In this case, she was speaking to me, an autistic adult with a career as a special educator, with patronizing and condescending words. OK, well, I'm not made of glass. I can handle it. But the thing that riles me up is that she's likely speaking to her students that way, too. If even a teacher gets this treatment, what is she doing to those kids? Is she prepared for them to become strong adults, with opinions of their own, when they grow up?

I can't control other people. I can only control myself. But even though it probably won't change anything, do I have a moral obligation to speak up?

I've been really committed to not getting in internet fights. It's been a huge learning curve for me. So, I'd like to explore what happened here some more.

"you can't reason with unreasonable people". i try to remember that

it's impossible to talk in any constructive way with people who set up catch-22's and show no understanding of the concept of benefit of the doubt. if you ever have no option and really need to interact with them, i think you need to learn manipulation tactics yourself (and then unfortunately there's no escape from the possibility that you'll become a bit of a hypocrite yourself in the process)

i don't think you have that moral obligation. those people aren't like that because of you, and they can't be changed by you. so i think it's a matter of self-preservation. remember that they feed on people who are afraid of being made to be the bad guy (by making them out to be the bad guy, naturally. it's what they're good at). if you have that fear, then ask yourself (sorry ) why you have it and whether you could change it and how. it's a parasitic fear

"do no harm, but accept that harm will be done" is another thought that i try to keep in mind

also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury

I saw the other thread and I wasn't sure what to make of it except that I thought people were harsh with the OP and the OP felt accused and not everyone takings accusations well. ABA is a sensitive topic here so that will set people off here and think the worst of someone and jump to the worse assumptions. That is pretty human there because lot of people jump to the worst conclusions when they are sensitive about something. You did try to warn the OP about it or was that B19? I can't remember who did the first reply of the thread warning the OP but they did try to warn her.


When someone is emotionally fragile, what I do about it is I try to steer clear of them and not correspond with them because they will twist what I say or take what I say the wrong way because of their problem. I don't talk to them. I am not a psychologist so I wouldn't know how to reason with them or how to talk to them without them getting anxiety or getting upset and taking things to extreme what I say. It's not my job anyway nor is it yours. Only people who can help them is themselves and they can only start with looking for a professional to see. But they would have to knowledge they have a problem and be aware of it before they get it. I have ran into quite a few of those here on this forum and I have found I just go around in circles with them so I would decide to not defend myself against them and they can say whatever they want and think whatever they want and I won't bother correcting them. Normally these people have trauma so it clouds their judgment and how they interpret things and I find I can never get through to them. PTSD is one of the issues they have which is pretty common for this behavior. So I think the best thing to do is ignore these people. Don't argue with them, don't correct them or bother defending yourself or else it makes it worse. That is how you avoid getting into online drama and avoid any heated conversations.

As for that OP, if she is indeed condescending, she will be suffering consequences in real life from her students. Also she might find that field isn't the best choice for her and might go find another field to work in. I know not all teachers quit or get fired because mine sure didn't. Instead my mom stopped speech and occupational therapy in 6th grade in my school. They didn't understand me and I wasn't happy and it was just a battleground so my mom decided to not do any therapy in school in 6th grade. But unfortunately you can't always do anything about it online when you are concerned about their students and think they could get away with it and parents being oblivious and not taking their kids seriously when they express their dislike about their teacher or therapy.

My advice, given your preference not to argue, is to make one well-thought-out post that states your position and then make a point of not revisiting the thread again.

That's actually a pretty solid idea. You never know, they may just see where you're coming from.

yeah, putting my general cynicism and frustrations aside, it does sound like a good idea overall to me as well

another thought: if you really want to get your point across to someone who doesn't seem to want to listen to you, you need to confuse them. which sounds gimmicky, but doesn't have to be. simply taking a breath and not taking things personally when the other person does is often unexpected enough. but then if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, no point in insisting. if it gets to that, and you feel like you're being misunderstood by others (or feel taken advantage of), you can switch your audience mentally, and write a final post mentally addressed to all the other readers, or even just to yourself, stating both your position and the reason why you've decided to leave the discussion

Yeah, I know what thread you're talking about----I read every word on it----well, BOTH threads, actually.

IMO, you interpreted the situation correctly----IIRC, you said something about her coming on here, like a bull in a china shop..... I got the same feeling----I felt like she seemed to be saying (maybe in a round-about way), "Here I am, to save the day". SHE was wrong, YOU were NOT!! She was very young-minded (physically young, as well; but, age doesn't mean that much to me)----and, for her to think that after she had studied for 2 years (or, whatever it was), and could come on here and advise people who have been LIVING-with Autism for, sometimes, 40 / 50 / 60+ years..... LOL Well, she was just all full of herself, wasn't she!! (I got the feeling, as well, that she might have Autism.)

She also seemed to have the idea that because she had studied what she was talking about, that she was the ONLY one who could talk about it----which is the attitude ALOT of professionals have; they think because they have the degree, their word is "law", or something.

As for "what is my responsibility in that situation?": First, to thine own self, be true (meaning, in this instance, don't compromise your integrity). Secondly, don't respond in-kind (and, you DIDN'T)----as you said, you detected (correctly, IMO) she was fragile. She was SHOCKED to get the response, that she did----she thought she was WONDERFUL because of what she had accomplished / had found her calling, and she thought everybody ELSE was gonna think she was wonderful, TOO. She seemed to have forgotten she was no-longer talking to KIDS, and that kids (of the age, I imagine she teaches) are gonna think ANY adult who helps them, is wonderful.

You were never gonna win with her, cuz she REFUSED to accept responsibility for what was HER role in when the situation went badly----maybe she was a little narcissist, TOO.

The best action to take, is just what you did----NOT come-down to her level (being snarky and so-forth).

As for "There is always just letting it go - ignoring the problem. But I've also noticed how that can become a real problem, too. First off, I think it sends ME a subconscious message that treating me like that is OK.": I'll go a few rounds with people----IF I think they're "listening", READING what I'm saying, CONSIDERING what I'm saying, and so-forth----but then, I'll just let it go, usually, if they're responding, PURELY driven by emotions. A person like that is driven, also, by EGO----and, they're gonna think badly of you, no-matter-WHAT (meaning, whether you let it go or not / respond or not)----so, don't allow it to send you a subconscious message; be confident in your assessment of this person, and that you handled it correctly, and that YOUR opinion of YOU, is all that matters. (I've thought like that, to a degree----I've thought: "If I don't respond, now, they're gonna think they've WON"----but, you have to pick your battles----AND, you have to preserve your sanity, above all ELSE, IMO.)

YES----you DO have a moral obligation to speak-up----if, for-no-other-reason, but because you FEEL you do (that's where the "integrity part", comes-in).

Don't worry----you done GOOD, kid!! (JUST an expression----I, in NO way, think of you as a child, and have had respect for your posts.)

How does confusing someone help? What does it do for them? How does that work?

it breaks the pattern, so the person has no instinctive response, and they're forced to stop and think. even if they're only acting and reacting emotionally (looking for signs that you're either "good" or "bad"), if they can't instantly figure out which category you (or the interaction) belong to, they'll need to analyze the actual contents of what you're saying instead of just looking at emotional cues and ignoring everything else, so there's a chance that they'll listen to you

I participated in that thread and I think the problem was that the op had no idea that autistic people might be anti-ABA. She probably expected that we would ask her for help. Not only did no one ask for her help, but she was told clearly that ABA is a controversial treatment. She seemed totally unaware of this and that is really discouraging. The psychiatric community uses it too much and then there are the charlatans who charge a fortune to abuse a child. So she got a double whammy - her help was not wanted or needed and her profession was challenged.
So, somanyspoons, I don't think you posted anything inappropriate. I think it was a volatile situation.

^^ I COMPLETELY agree!!

I'm listening, everyone.

I think I just lost my ability to walk away because I identified with this so strongly. She was me, 15 years ago. I was an undiagnosed Aspie, with a history of going through special education with other diagnosis. And I went into the schools thinking I could do some real good.

Part of what went wrong was that I didn't understand how much I parrot, or script, based on what I've heard other people say to me. So, when people were awful to me as a special education student, I recorded that in my brain. And then when I was dealing with students that stuff would come out.

I didn't understand that my words and my body language weren't always representing what I thought. Often, they were expressing exactly the opposite. It was so confusing because I meant well, and I really had an affection for the kids and respect for the adults. But everyone thought I was oppositional, and I wasn't intending to be.

I was trying to let this person know what she was sounding like. The same way I would love to go back in time and share with my younger self. Every model I had as a child was mean and harsh, and I had no idea how to communicate without that. It still comes up sometimes. I just recently embarrased myself in front of my friends a few weeks ago. I said something with "a condescending tone" that I really meant neutrally. It's so embarrassing.

But that's the thing about special education as I went through it. When everyone you are interacting with is "being professional" and "not letting the child think she's in charge" what you get is confrontational and condescending communication modeled to you over and over again. It's really all I knew. I didn't have friends. My parents were just as bought into this behaviorist model as anyone else.

I agree, too. Maybe she'll make a fresh account and join again when she figures it out that me and b19 aren't some kind of special weird autistics that don't fawn with gratitude over our special education experiences. Oy!

I honestly feel as though I must side with the ABA therapist on this. She did not want to get into an argument and in fact in her first few posts she outlined that she accepted that we would have a different perspective. I really think that B19 actually ended up provoking her by attacking her profession to begin with causing her to become defensive.

i think pretty much everybody could theoretically have handled it more gracefully somehow. but then again that's almost always the case in any situation. and this is, after all, a website meant for people who are generally "not very socially graceful", to put it mildly. so it's something to be expected, even if it may not be something to be applauded. considering the way she introduced herself, i think the resentful response to her presence was inevitable, regardless of who exactly would be resentful. someone would be resentful, and someone would have trouble dealing with the awkwardness

she introduced herself as "the good guy". okay, so far so good. maybe she really is fighting some kind of worthy battle. but, despite being the foreign element here, she didn't exercise much caution, as if her "good" status could be taken for granted. that's a recipe for trouble. and as soon as her "good guy" status was even questioned (which was entirely predictable), she reacted as the rightful and virtuous side being victimized by the wrongful one, escalating the tension instead of working to mitigate it, and then concluding with the telltale "i don't care anyway" type of storming out

i think her contradictions and double standards betray her dubious motivations. when it's convenient, certain people (autistics) can be seen as having no agency or autonomy, so she can be there to save the day. but, when it's convenient, people belonging to that same group can be dissociated from it, and can be held fully accountable for her hurt feelings (accountable even for the role of her own lack of tact in the unfortunate outcome of the interaction -- and i think that's the insidious part. the half-truth that "someone provoked her" becomes the entire truth, as if there was no context that led to the unfriendly remarks)

or perhaps she's aba'ing everyone and we're all none the wiser? who knows

How does one learn manipulation tactics? Do you know of any that you could share?