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Jees,

I nearly got sectioned, worked out 'my problem', other people are selfish and I am not.

As such, not having a sense of self to an extent,
I ask lots of questions (to establish other's desire, their wishes).

A friend showed me a clip of Charles Manson on youtube.

Exactly the same selfless language.

Exactly the same language people are using, all the time on this forum.
It could have been written by him, well so long as someone else had the desire for him to write it!
Given that I often try to work out others desires, and selfish desire can make me distempered, not angry, not towards them.

Imagine someone saying that a woman is a slut, and then me getting tempered and trying to work them out.

"Do you think she's evil"
"are you going to kill her then"

hmmm.......

No remorse?

There's a kind of poetry in this post that I appreciate, but I've little idea what you mean.

Manson, isn't that the helter-skelter-in-a-summer-swelter murdering muppet guy? The one with the psycho take-over-the-world motivation? Not exactly what I'd call selfless.

Sound like me, and about 10million other people I know!! !! !

Anyhow, gona check out some more vids.

This is a guy who need the desire of someone else who was in prison, who owed him a favour (that was then the desire) You could say, he 'kept his mouth shut, and did what he was told to'. He didn't answer back, he questioned back.

Dr's and shrinks aren't supposed to tell you what to do, they don't give you and desire to answer.
So, you just ask question after question, when they don't seem to be listening to you, you do other things, or make stupid noises (obviously I realise if I did that in-front of the shrink I'd, well get taken away possibly. But I have seriously considered it, after we just couldn't communicate).

I can communicate with my GP though, but still he can't actually do anything for me without me asking for it, and I can't with him. less than, productive.

I think my GP only realised the other day, than at some point he's able to say, I would be able to do that for you, and therefore give an offer, and desire.

He also managed to tell me a few things I could say to the doctor, after I said that sometime there was an issue between common language and more medical language and stuff...

To write a book about himself, a man who does not feel guilty because he say's he didn't do it and so has never felt any guilt.

I can do nothing without the desires of others (just like he couldn't), I am selfless, I ask people a lot of questions, like a hell of a lot, I need to know their desire so I can do things.

What kind of questions do you think I ask about their desire?
Do you think that I have to subtly manipulate the situation (like a psychopath does), but to gain their desire.
Not as a psychopath does, for their own desire, to see what their desires do to another person.

Watch the video, listen to what they don't seem to realise he is saying.

Like me he has no sense of self or free will, he says he can reflect on himself (I can), but I am 'not' myself, I am selfless.

only real odd bit is where he says I should have done more....


Also what do you think of women bit....

Well, I keep my mouth shut and do what I'm told to do am put together well and spongy.


I could near give all the answers to the questions he does, I could do all the things [make stupid noises at people etc..]I've seen him do in the 4-5 clips I've watched so far, and frequently do.


lar lar lar lar you can't hear me. type of thing, or well you ain't listening to me so I'll pretend to be a bird.

Often to things like tell me how you feel, I may actually do that by expressing how I feel in ways other than words.

Well,

How can an 'innocent' question to try and work out why people have selfish feelings, when you have none, turn into murder?

(I haven't read the case or ne thing, just watched a few vids...... I could be like he is in all the vids)

A pregnant woman walks past.
Acting Me (drunk): "Ah what a lovely woman"
Guy in cardboard box next to me: "She's a slut"
Me (now agitated by his selfish ness, and wanting to find out why):
"Do you think she's evil?"
Guy Next "Yeh, she's an evil slut"
Me (even more agitated)
"Are you going to kill her then, are you?"

Hopefully you can see where that 'selfless' line of questioning and answer session may well end up.

Then when it happened once, you need to find out why it happened, so it doesn't happen again, or you can understand people better.

But, s**t, they just keep killing people.

I could also say things like, I didn't do it, my brain did it (it's in my head),
because I see myself like I see other people (in a way) or indeed other things.
It's like I'm watching myself, I am not actually myself.

I do not have 'self'


Sometimes it may seem a little like that,

For instance, I could not tell you who ..... because they would tell on me.
(they would tell on me, because they did not want me to tell you who they are).
It's not that I don't want him to tell on me,
But that he would tell on me, because he doesn't want me to tell.

See how the 'selflessness' can seem 'false' sometimes.

a what do you mean, or why would he tell on you etc.... would be a bit more revealing.

I'd really have to do a lot more digging, before I could say, I can show reasonable doubt that, well, he's telling the truth, your just not listening to it /understanding it.

And if that where the case, I think giving someone the benefit of the doubt, is a selfless thing to do.

He doesn't make any money out of the book.

Hey, I'm not Oliver the red for nothing!

that's possibly because I'm asking questions and giving you 'facts'.

Not actually, 'telling you',

You'd have to ask me what you wanted me to tell you first.

I need your 'desire' so to speak.

I am without 'self'

I don't actually know 'what' I mean yet, I haven't reached closure.

But the hypothisis I'm currently working on is that,
the reason I do sooo very badly at the shrink, is cos I seem exactly like manson.

And I do really, really, really amazingly badly.

I'm not sure if I should be really worried about you or not... kind of really really badly.
The kind of kept on med for 5 years after they knew they weren't working, really, really, badly.
The kind of, never been able to get a referal, or second opinion, really really badly.
The kind of put in complaints, nothing happens, even when friends put them in too. really really badly.

There's got to be some reason?

Why didn't they just send me off for some language therepy?
They refused to accept I had a 'learning' dissability.

All they ever ever proscribe me is anti-psychotics.
Tried to section me and co-erse my girlfriend.

Every time I see them, I present to them, differently, as I'm trying to comminucate! So trying different approaches.
I don't have multiple 'personalities' I'm trying to adapt to there's.

I keep saying there not asking the right questions, and giving examples.

no change....


I mean, to get that kind of treatment, and obviously not be 'psychotic' in the clasical sense.
And saying what I belive I may have (or others have told me), and even poionting to the guidelines that say,
if they are not qualified to diagnose that condtion they can't say that what I have,
and even telling them who can.

They gota really think your of your rocker, big stylie.

Where would they get that idea from,
I present, just like charles manson.

I'd like to see someone 'pretend' to be selfless.
Either he's been practicing his impersenation of me, to a fault so far.
Or he ain't shitin.

My Dr was 'trying' to pretend to be selfless/unopiniated,
but it took him ages to work out he could/should tell me what he could do,
or what I could 'ask for' etc....

Now I've gone through the guidelines and stuff the doctors have to follow, or should do.
I now know, more about what he can actually do and he has to do.

I can follow rules to a T, I can do as I'm told and keep my mouth shut.


Car's are insured, someone got insurance, incase they were stolen. Incurance pays out, if a car is stole.
I could use a bit of that desire, to become a petty car thief.
When pushed, it wouldn't be that selfish, I mean, why pay insurance if no one steals you car.

I remember once I stole a sweet from a shop, because someone told me to steal something from the shop.

Do you think you'd be able to steal cars?(desire)
I could steal cars,
If you steal on for me (desire), I'll give you something.

Also considering that Asperger's and so called 'higher functioning', forms of Autism only reciently had diagnosis critera.
And it's categories crudely as a language disability.

All the stuff that's been said about manson.

That's one big sorry to have to say.

I know loads of people, very very similar to myself.

I'm just a little bit more so.


Asperger's used to get diagnoses as a 'psychotic' illness quite often,
before the 'Asperger's' criteria came out.


So I've had a bit of a better think about the What do you think about women.

(I'm used to trying to understand normal people, so I had to relate to myself a bit more to work out what it would mean if I had said it).


So well put together, ..... so long as they do as they are told and keep their mouth shut (so only answer what they are asked etc...),
so long as they are selfless.

Who told you that?

If I were to tell you, he would grass on me.


No one told him, he worked it out for himself.
So to answer the question, in the way that it has been asked, in a selfless way, to relate empathatically.

Me telling you that it was my self.

Is he grassing on me.

But he could not reply, I worked it out for myself or whatever.

The most 'truthful', selfless answer, based on what was asked is probably:
If I were to tell you, he would grass on me.

something which needs working out.

he has, done as he was told, and kept his mouth shut.

I'm not sympathixing with 'Nazi's,

But I seem to have a 'reason' able, doubt as to if he is actually a Nazi.

I've spent all my life studying people, and trying to work them out and what they say and express myself. And I sound a hell of a lot like he does.


How can a man without a 'sole', be evil?

Ne how, I'm gona dig up as much as possible, work out what I would say to the questions he was asked, and (of course me not being him, I don't actually think I am him... don't worry about that!) see how that fits with what he was saying.

I've had a bit more of a intellectually social life than he may have had, so my adaptation patterns and language are a little different.

But when asked to give the truth, or expected to, the absolute truth in the context of my thoughts and mind.
When I am not qualified myself to make and 'decisions', half truths etc....

I can seem, just a little bit, too close for comfort, like Manson.


I don't 'draw' conclusions until I have closure, because until then I don't know,
I can just state facts, answer questions and ask questions to try to get closure.


It's possible that he saw war going on, and thought that that was the desire of the country or whatever, to make people kill other people.

But I would have joined the Amy if I thought that was the case. How would I know which people to kill? someone would have to tell me.

Odd how some people associate some individuals with certain things they did in life that are 'bad/evil'.
I thought of the music he wrote and had part in.
Ever hear of Crispin Glover? Guns and Roses? Marilyn Manson (not family)? or how about the Beach Boys? Maybe a band called the Beatles?



Hi Oliver, as much as this is upsetting to me, I want to thank you for posting this. I believe I may understand far too well what you are saying. I could be wrong though, been that a lot lately, but such is the test of life. Some parts of it, individuals may get correct, other parts, not so much. If I am correct and it is the same thing, or close to it, maybe it will help with whatever is left to sort out for myself in gaining a better understanding. If I am incorrect, I apologise for interrupting your thread.

I will try to explain how I see this, I may use an example that had been described to me by a friend I am not in contact with.
When they described what they did during communication with others, I tried to explain how I thought it was wrong that so many others had done that to them. It had to have started some where, some how and from that they, the friend, developed a way of communicating with everyone.

It seems that this way of communicating with individuals worked for them, until they met me. You see, I simply could not do that type of communication. Force feeding individuals what an other thinks is the correct way to answer, just is wrong to me. I simply could not do it and that caused problems I believe with the friendship. I could not give them my answers, thoughts or beliefs, because those are mine and I believed it was up to this old friend to have their own set. I can share them in some ways, but not give or force feed.





Questioned back, could mean a couple things, maybe more depending on the individual.

From what I understood from the friends description, it kind of went like they would need to know the other persons thoughts on it. That my friend could not voice anything about a subject, unless they knew how the others felt about it.

They said that they would need something like.. "Is that good?" type answers from the other person. So they were receiving positive feedings from the others, because the others 'helped' my friend form their fed opinion of something. I said many times that it was selfish and horrible that everyone they ever knew did that to them. The last I heard from them, I was still the only one that didn't do it. I try not to think, that if I did do that to them, that there would still be a friendship. But, I cannot do that to another being, that would not be what I understand friendships to be about.

Then there is the questioning question some ask, 'Why is that good?' this question would, if asked, be causing the other to 'defend' or 'challenge' their beliefs/thoughts on things. If they challenged their own beliefs/thoughts, would that not make them to be so judgemental of others thoughts and beliefs? That they would be non-judgemental.




There are times, when people ask questions, because they want to know the others desires/hopes/dreams, just to know the individual. To discover and share common interest.

How would you do, if an individual came along and didn't answer the questions. But instead, asked you about your hopes/dreams and desires. Not out of selfishness, but because they wish to share and discover common interest with you.

It took a little bit, but my friend seemed to get used to how I spoke and didn't seem to need my 'its good' and the conversations were comfortable. At one point in the friendship, they thanked me for the way I am and said they understood why I said it was selfish of the others. They said that they felt sorry for the others, because they felt they needed to be that way.. or something very close to that. It has been decades ago since then, or so it seems.

Then the conversations went back to how they first were, difficult to understand. I realised shortly after, that they must have gotten caught back in that cycle with others. But I couldn't play that way, it hurt because they kept trying to get me to do it. To voice a desire that was not mine and kept saying they did not understand what I wanted them to be or what I wanted from them. It hurt, because they were saying those things, expecting and needing the answers, yet knowing I was not like that.




No sense of individual desires/wants/likes/beliefs/morals/own truths/own knowledge aka self-knowledge... is that what you mean?
By reflecting on self.. is that looking back on things a individual did, or is it how an individual was.. during a period in time..



The stuff about him when he was younger is really interesting. There is also a story, I think he tells it in a documentary, about a girl and a flower. He still writes music and some of the lyrics are the most incredible reading experiences.

I do not believe a child is born 'evil', but it seems many others might, because they do not seem to be able to see the other parts of some individuals. I am also not saying that I believe Charles Manson, or any others, is evil or good, he is who he is.




Thank you again for posting this, I am honestly wondering if it is the same thing. To me, it sounds like it, but it is your thoughts that wrote the post, so you would have a better idea if the two are connected, your type of question and my old friends type of question.

One last thing, sorry, but the quoted bit following, popped up a 'image' I kind of associate with that individual I was talking about.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLvIFRNbqOs[/youtube]


If this is close to what you mean.. I would like to hear more, if you care to share your insight. I miss my friend and not sure if we can ever make our way back with this, need of theirs. The toxicity of it is horrible.

You could say that due the the 'environment' he is in and has grown up in, his language development is a bit off.

So, grass on me. As a none selfish generalisation, and a word he probably hear a lot in his situation.

Would just be another way of saying tell on me.

He was asked who 'told' him

You could add some tense in here, since he would grass on me, doesn't really have a tense. Future could be assumed in normal language use. Will would be future tense, would be grassing present tense. (but I I told you, (implies a future tense, but if it is actually telling someone, then it's present. Like a riddle)

a more layman version of the riddle would be.

If I told you, I would have told you me.

I am telling you now?


I don't recall the film/book (I don't read so to speak, books can;'t answer questions about the answers they give you. So they confuse me), but did Golom, ever really do anything evil, even though the evil appeared to be in him?
The evil has changed his outward appearance, because his selflessness has absorbed some of that evil, but he could not be it, or carry out it's actions, even though he may have appeared to be.

Kind of, well maybe if I take the ring for a little bit, for the evil, then I give it back that would not be evil.

I could be that he was a mad, crazy, f****r and then that flipped him into such a state of anguish that he became selfless. (in that case I'd say he's probably cured himself!)

They did use yo use the method of 'curing' madness, by making people even madder, until they flipped.

I remember I got rid of a load of anxiety, by just thinking, screw this, why should I 'care'.

This was manly anxiety about how I appeared to other people, how I looked and that kind of stuff.

So I stopped caring about adapting to 'their' problems, I did not want their problems on my shoulders, especially when there was little or nothing I could do about it, or even work out what the hell their problem was. I was born this way, I did not choose to be who I am, some idiots had too many children and chopped down most of nature in the past, I didn't 't do that. what's the problem with me that needs to be addressed.

I mean, just thing really simply, I am a simple person, I don't know much, I ask lots of questions, things are usually easy and obvious for me. I think it's incredibly humerus, that I've been' endowed' with natural gifts that others desire.

I know how I think etc... I don't experience free will. The way I think is so god dam simple, I'm considering transferring it into a computer programme.

In never occurred to me that other people may be thinking in a more 'transcendental' way, poor buggers!

Forgiveness is absolute, what is evil?

I once had a dream, Where God asked me to Forgive Satan (the fallen angle) so that evil would be rid from the world, as he had not been able to. And because God could not forgive, that was why there was evil.

I was wondering through the whole dream going, ok, if you tell me that God has told you this I'll go along with it, just for the crack of it. But you should know, that I really am a hard core atheist.

I suppose Manson, may well be a fallen angle. He may also have been mistaken for the devil.

Like Parvol's dog, mistook the sound of a bell, for the smell of food.

See what they do to people like me, is send them off to the monastery,get us to sit and think for half the day, and then go into a court yard and ask each other lots of drilling questions, until answers are arrived at.

If you look at something like 'zen' Buddhism, the kind of 'hallucinations' I've had (There was a post I made ages ago about 'epiphanies', well there actually objective goals of the 'religion', something to be achieved and cherished, not feared.
Free Tibet, free me from this prison without walls.

I'm kind of asking questions, and talking in 'riddles' (statements which are questions), because I do not know the answer, I have not reached closure.

From the clips, he appears to be questioning himself, then 'questioning' other people, and trying to work out how to communicate, TO THEM.

He is self aware, I am self aware.
I am aware that I am 'no different', we are all the product of circumstance. And it may even be worth considering if you are being drawn into the future, or pushed from the past. How's that for time travel!

Ok,

Riddle me this.

I've got useless internet at home, so haven't watched the videos again.

But from memory:

He says he has killed no one, then I think they go on about his treatment.

Asked should you have done more.

Yes, I should have killed xxxxx people.

'to deserve this treatment"

He has already protested his innocence.

Maybe the odd 'why' thrown into the questioning may have resulted in less, selfish, interpretations of his language.

How can you treat someone as an 'individual' if you never ask them the question why.

Soft, generalised, logical, none-selfish language. In response to the questions of 'what', like they do in court, what has happened are apparently the 'facts' so why it has happened appears not to get asked.

I've been complaining and complaining that they never ask me why!


What where you doing.
I was talking to them to see if they would kill people.
What where you doing this for
To better understand evil.

I was talking to them to see if they would kill people.

not
I made people kill other people by talking to them

I was talking to them to see (questioning) if they would[not to make them , but to understand if that had that desire] kill people.

That's a f**k up waiting to happen.

He says he can reflect back upon him self.

That's what I can do, but I do not have any experience of free will. I watch myself, like I see other people.

There is an 'anxiety' condition, that may be a little similar (where people says it like watching themselves and like being in a dream).

Though I was able to be 'selfish' think of myself, once, for about half an hour, after taking Kava Kava and Ketamine.
I had a mini break down (like a hour or so) afterwards.

To be proven 'correct', by the an experience of selfishness I'd never had, was upsetting to think that my only problem was that others were 'selfish', and how 'good' it felt to be so.

anyhow,

I should really do a hell of a lot more digging.

I don't think it's good to pass judgement (so to speak) based on how someone becomes after what must have been incredibly 'emotional'.

As I say, there's an anxiety condition, that seem similar.

So basically I'm saying,

I'm not saying he's 'innocent', or wasn't.

But from what I've seen, I have reasonable doubt.

And if it can be shown there was reasonable doubt, then that would mean that there was a savage injustice done.
A gross failing in the system.

and that could have happened many many times, against 'humanity'

hmm... looking at wikipedia,
I can see a lot about lots of female friends (Yep, me too. many Woman find me really calming!)
I can see lots about helping people
and where he had to be asked a 'direct' question, and some statements about that.

That to show he would not harm someone he kissed their feet.

But, it say's 'on his instructions'.. but they appear to be missing what those actually were.

I also have plenty of friends, who want to or are in 'communes' of sorts.

I can possibly see if how some other people believed him (when he'd just spotted a pattern), that would re-enforce that belief.

And then that would re-enforce a 'group' desire, that he could then have fed off. And being an isolated group, well, it got out of hand a bit to say the least.

There's an incredibly good reason I don't just 'run away' with some people [Woman] as they have suggested.
We would feed off each other too much.

My partner that I have is a good choice for both of us [possibly for everyone], she likes more 'control', because going free-fall freaks her out.

I know that violence beggets violence, hate beggets hate.
I know that when your in too deep, it's hard to see daylight.
With other people it's just like, two fully grown children.

Do you think I've got something here? [about the song, religion, the blacks]

Do you want to help the blacks?

Why didn't the revolution start.
"Because they did not want to start it Mr Manson" [not possibly because they did not want to start it, or they may not wanted it]

You may have to show them how to start it. (I think wikipedia say that he said that).

Maybe he didn't 'tell them' he didn't 'manipulate' them.

may, you may have to.

He's asking them to think about, what they have told him.

Some people seem to completely miss hear me sometimes.
Even two people standing next to me hear one thing, and someone across the other side of the room will confirm what I said I said.

Maybe the two near me, kind of got stuck in the riddle, and their brain 'tweaked' it into something else.