There is no such thing as potential

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The idea of "fulfilling your potential" reminds me of "Zeno's Paradox".

The runner never quite catches the tortoise because the tortoise is always moving forwards. So, the runner never fulfills his potential no matter how hard he tries.

The goal posts are constantly shifting.
If you achieve something, you'll want to achieve something else.

You'll never catch the tortoise of your "highest potential" even though you might achieve a lot trying to catch it.

So even if you achieve a lot, you could wind up feeling depressed because, you believe that you had the potential to achieve more than you actually achieved.

This is what I meant by people not knowing what they are missing. You neglect to take into consideration the fact that it actually feels good to accomplish something. You seem to speak from the position of someone who has accomplished nothing, has negative feelings as a result of that, and believes those feelings would follow you throughout your success. They wouldn't, they would be replaced by feelings of "oh, that's weird, things can actually work out sometimes, what is this strange feeling of awesomeness?". You feel depressed because your situation is depressing, if it wasn't depressing, it's very likely that you wouldn't. Again, the senseless authors will tell you that it works the other way around, and thinking happy thoughts will make everything fine. They're wrong, but attempting to make everything fine will bring happy thoughts.

Your bleak attitude also seems to be trying to further convince you that there is no point in trying, which is only going to encourage you not to, and make you even more depressed when you don't, etc. It will constantly feed back and build up. It makes more sense for a living creature to ignore such feelings and the clusters of reasoning which those feelings glue together and present to you as the "truth", just as it makes sense for a living creature to ignore the same sentiments when another creature is trying to tell them they will never accomplish anything and should die. You should tell those feelings to go **** themselves just as you would tell another person to do the same, you're basically bullying yourself and agreeing with everything the bully has to say. Trying to stand up for yourself would be harder but would "potentially" feel better.

I can't sit here typing out huge rants all day, I have things to do (I found a way to make money from blind religious faith, just like religions do, lol). Instead of sitting here trying to convince yourself there's no point trying anything, why don't you think of something to try which would feel rewarding if you succeeded, and chip away at that goal? If you're going to whittle away your hours with this kind of thinking, with nothing to show for it except perpetually increasing depression, I don't see what you have to lose by whittling away the same hours trying to accomplish something which might fail and lead to the exact same depression but actually has the slight potential to feel good, as opposed to the alternative, a guarantee that you'll convince yourself and others to stay miserable.

In a way I don't think there is a thing like potential. At not in the way the word is abused.

I see potential as something you can do in the future. Like:

A had great potential to become a soccer player. When he was 10 he was already the best one on the team. At 20 he was a pro player.

B had potential being an artist. However, she grew up very poor and had to work and take care of her little sister after they were orphaned.

C had potential being a great violinist. She composted at age 5 and at 7 she was sent by her rich parents to a special school for young talents. However at age 10 she was ran over by a bus and killed.

D had potential of becoming a good scientist. However he was totally inept doing anything else, and by chance he met his wife who took care of everything in his life, decided what he was going to wear and cooked his food. He became a Nobel prize winner but without the wife he would have become a nobody.

E had potential being something. Teachers told her she was multi talented and could choose any path. However E also had Asperger's syndrome which nullified the talents since she had to spend all her energy just functioning day to day. The obstacles were just too big.

Invader

I used to think in exactly the same way you did.

Now I realise that achievement can wreck families and bring great pain.
It can also bring addictive, neurotic and obsessive compulsive behaviour.
I was sworn at, bullied and laughed at when I didn't achieve. I was surrounded by stressed people when I did achieve. I was also so busy trying to achieve so many things at once that I couldn't enjoy life for what it was. Also when I did achieve 98% on a test, my family would ask me what happened to the other 2%, which made me feel horrible.

No, I did not feel good when people coerced me to achieve things. It made me feel inadequate trying to meet other people's expectations. They defined my "highest potential" for me.

I have won academic awards but felt so phony and embarassed on receiving them. I do not agree with awards ceremonies as they make other people jealous. I did feel sort of happy for about five minutes, but the dopamine rush soon wore off. I'm happier and much more stable being in the present moment contemplating nature. This seems much healthier than trying to chase after a fictional "potential" that I can't even touch.

I am trying my best at the moment.
I have to look after my disabled relatives and my overprotective upbringing severly restricts what I can do.

I think that worshipping potential is an incredibly distructive, nebulous form of thinking. I'm amazed that I fell for it the first time.
It leads to burnout.

I was told by teachers that I was very clever. I got very poor results in my exams. Well, just before the exams, I was diagnosed with AS, but that didn't cause my failure. My failure was always there, its the level of intelligence that you pocess. Anyway, I was AS from birth. I was super bad at maths, but I excel with ways to make money and organise all the funds that I have come with. It hasn't been easy for me, to understand why I have all that money. I just have it.

I don't think that there's anything bleak or depressing at all about not believing in the concept/social construct "potential". In fact I have found it liberating, helpful/supportive and inspiring to stop believing in it.

I am wondering whether this argument is actually fundamentally about the issue of free will. I stopped believing in contra-causal free will, ( the belief that there is something in us, or about us, which is somehow independent of the rest of the physical universe and capable of making decisions irrespective of our genes, conditioning/nurture, physical and cultural environment, etc, and for the existence of which there is no more evidence than there is for god; it is simply a matter of belief, or faith ), two and a half years ago.

And one of the things which I noticed soon after I stopped believing in it was that I could no longer feel proud of myself for doing certain things, nor look down on other people for failing to do those sort of things, that I was far more accepting, and less judgemental, both of myself and of others, as a result, ( and is why I understood totally what you meant, AmberEyes, when you said you didn't feel proud of what you are ... "why should you?" ). I am the product of the universe. Everybody is the product of the universe.

We can not be anything else but what the universe makes us.

To talk of our potential implies that we know, better than the universe, what we are capable of being and doing. It's like thinking that because we have worked out to some extent what growth to expect from certain plants in certain soils that it is possible to "calculate" people like that too. I don't know what the infinitely complex machinery of the universe will make of me, but it will, it is already, making that "me". Any "decision" that I experience myself making is the product of the universe, ( my genes, my conditioning, my physical and cultural environment ).

"Potential" is a social construct which inherently involves a "should", ( something which I do not tend to find helpful ), a value judgement which implies that whosoever achieves it is more mature, more evolved, more "realised", a "better" or "happier" person, having supposedly mustered their courage, persistence, talents, etc to do so on their "own", whereas I believe that it might have seemed against the odds but was always the result of their genes, conditioning, environment etc.

And who decides if you have fulfilled your potential? As a couple of people have already pointed out, it is entirely subjective, a socially constructed "label" for those people that are deemed, by society, or themselves, :lol to have done well. What I most dislike about the label is how its value, ( like a lot of labels ) is built on/dependent on there being people who don't seem to "qualify" for it, the have-nots, the "could do betters" in this case, the ones that look "bad" so that the winners can feel "proud of themselves" for something which not they but the universe is responsible for. ...

I believe that by the time we die we have all of us fulfilled our potential.
.

Last edited by ouinon on 25 Aug 2010, 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I know an autistic woman who is not even unsuccessful by most standards. She was married with kids and grandkids when this happened. But she submitted a book proposal to a major autism publisher and they refused because they told her they only want success stories. Why wasn't she a success story? Because her husband gave her a huge amount of help to get through the day and she had an extremely noticeable language impairment. So at least one publisher has been explicit about this requirement.



And it's not even happiness that is mandated. It's a fake kind of cheeriness that requires constant effort because it has to deny reality in order to exist. Real happiness isn't so superficial, doesn't require being cheery or denying reality, and doesn't try to force itself on other people like that. I think I'm genuinely happy and this positive thinking cult makes me sick. Barbara Ehrenreich wrote a really good book on that topic. I can't remember the title but if you search her name you should find something. Edit to add: It's called Bright Sided. Read it, it contains real research about why thieves BS.

"I'm happier and much more stable being in the present moment contemplating nature."

Nature is nothing but a collection of entities acting in their own self-interest to get what they want.

After reading this post it seems like your problem is not a lack of potential but an inability to cope with the unavoidable conflict in life and nature. I assume you don't get overly worried about how other organisms feel when you accomplish the goal of eating them for your own benefit, if you cared too much about their feelings you'd starve and die. That's life. Allowing yourself to be sucked down by those who envy you or refuse to acknowledge your accomplishments is not the same thing as being unable to accomplish anything.

"I think that worshipping potential is an incredibly distructive, nebulous form of thinking. "

It is what drives all life. Abandoning it is more destructive than anything else ever could be. An animal which has grown so confused and withdrawn from reality that it no longer understands why it should kill for food, and is overcome by a fantasy that doing so is "too destructive", is diseased.

Imagine an owl which found the complaints and snide remarks from his prey to be emotionally crushing. Mice saying its ability to see in the dark is nothing special, asking it why it hunts at night, is it too much of a loser to hunt in the day? A brooding depressed owl who doesn't use its skills and advantages to strive toward its potential because it is too depressed by the comments of rodents to focus on living. When you're imagining this owl, be sure to include the maggots and the gaping skeleton, as it would be a dead owl, not a wise one like it may have led itself to believe.

Last edited by Invader on 25 Aug 2010, 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

anbuend wrote:

She was on C-Span's BookTV this past weekend discussing this book. I'm glad there's a few critical voices out there speaking about this positive thinking cult. While I hold little brief for Deepak Chopra, even he has spoken about this before. He said that our society now places restrictions on expressing (or even feeling) a full range of human emotions. It's almost as if any less-than positive thought is now a thought crime in America. Author Joe Queenan also touched upon this a few years ago in his book "Balsamic Dreams". He is witheringly critical of the baby boomer (and subsequent generations) generation and it's values. He said that there was once a time when people were just expected to be decent and now everyone's expected to be a comedian. Nevermind the fact that most of the self-perceived comedians ought to stick with their day jobs. I am also glad Ehrenreich discussed this Oprah-fueled manifestation of this "cult" know as "The Secret". One of the motivational speakers who has endorsed "The Secret" was recently arrested in connection with several deaths at one of sweat lodge ceremonies.

For some reason...many Americans who would've laughed at the charlatan christian televangelists have now turned to new age and positive thinking charlatans.


In any case....i'm afraid the lyrics of the Dead Kennedy's song "California Uber Alles" is where the whole country is at right now.

"California Uber Alles"

I am Governor Jerry Brown
My aura smiles
And never frowns
Soon I will be president...

Carter Power will soon go away
I will be Fuhrer one day
I will command all of you
Your kids will meditate in school
Your kids will meditate in school!

[Chorus:]
California Uber Alles
California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California
Uber Alles California

Zen fascists will control you
100% natural
You will jog for the master race
And always wear the happy face

Close your eyes, can't happen here
Big Bro' on white horse is near
The hippies won't come back you say
Mellow out or you will pay
Mellow out or you will pay!

[Chorus]

Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the suede/denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece

Come quietly to the camp
You'd look nice as a drawstring lamp
Don't you worry, it's only a shower
For your clothes here's a pretty flower.

DIE on organic poison gas
Serpent's egg's already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with President Brown
When you mess with President Brown


Furthermore....I believe the current generation has less of excuse for this "Zen Fascist" behavior. This is the most formally educated generation in American history. Even many of those who majored in subjects other than psychology have taken at least one psychology course. Thus....they ought to understand that others who may behave in manner which doesn't conform to this current societal ideal MAY have neuro-psychological disorder like AS, NVLD, schizoid personality disorder, etc....Or perhaps maybe their mother just died after an agonizing bout with cancer. Whatever the case...it's quite irrational and unfair to expect everyone to be wearing a happy helmet all the time regardless of whether they're happy internally or not. The mixed messages in this society are absurd. On one hand we are told to "keep it real" and "be ourselves" and on the other, we are ostracized, mocked and even, fired or denied a promotion for doing just that.

Bill Parcells once said that when people described football players as "having potential", it just meant that the players hadn't accomplished anything yet.

If you don't believe in luck or chance, I'd say it's hard to believe in potential. Everything would be pre-destined.

I'd say luck/chance is the only factor which undermines predestination. I'm having a difficult time understanding why some of my fellow atheists/materialists still believe in free will. A ghost in the machine seems logically compatible when it comes to the beliefs of the religious/spiritual....not so with atheists/materialists.

From whence does free will emerge for some of my fellow materialists?....The Cingulate Gyrus or something?

Certainly a primitive tribe could operate with only this level of communication. We're about as certain as we can be that Neanderthals never had language (given that they became extinct about 40,000 years ago we can't exactly ask them). Yet they had fire, shelter, and a pretty good stone-age toolset.

But I think the concept of the future (though not necessarily represented in the language by a future tense) is really important. Without it, there is no way to plan.

If you are doing everything you can right now to fulfil your potential, then you are fulfilling your potential.

The problem, as I see it, is that YOU and all people who think like you are imposing your value system on the rest. That is what's destructive. What makes you assume that everyone will find fulfillment and happiness by "accomplishing" the things that are imposed on us by others? I agree that certain things are necessary for survival, but that completely misses the point.

Not everyone is wired to find happiness and fulfillment through struggle or competition alone. I can't possibly take on your philosophy of life as to me there is no joy in it. It looks empty, sterile, and intellectually and spiritually suffocating. But that's just my personal view.

Also, I don't buy into the notion that struggle and competition is what drives all human accomplishment. I think this is just a modern bastardization of existential philosophy by the likes of people such as Ayn Rand. If struggle and competition was all there was to life there would be no philosophy or science or art and we would still be in the dark ages. I think struggle and competition are vastly overrated. What separates humans from the rest of the animals is our ability to see beyond the struggle for survival. We can also find joy and fulfillment through observation and reflection on our surroundings, appreciation for beauty, creativity, and the search for understanding. Struggle and competition only occupy a small fraction of driving force behind humanity.

Philosophy is the struggle to find truth. Science is a struggle against the unknown. Art is the struggle to create beauty.

Man, I love this topic, but I hate debating it, so I won't.

This is what I think, and I'll just leave it at this.

Potential IS what you are capable of, and no more. The idea of reaching your potential is all about doing as much as you are able. Period. Don't let anyone else tell you whether you have reached yours. No one knows you as well as you, and that's why you need to know yourself.

Success should be defined by each individual for him or herself. Nobody has any business defining it for anyone else, and that includes for our own children. For our children, the best we can do is show them what it means to us, and encourage them to do their best, but we should never impose what is important to us upon them. Let them use their own minds to determine their own futures.

Potential for each is unique to them and only them. What one is able to accomplish can for some be more limited than others. Autistic spectrum disorders limit that ability for everyone that has them to varied degrees. Many self help principles can and do work, even for those on the spectrum, however they may not have as much effect on them as for those who are not on the spectrum.

Henry Ford is attributed with the statement, "Whether you say you can, or you can't, you're right." There is some wisdom in that statement. If you say you can't, you may be setting yourself up for failure, OR, you may have just come to know yourself and your very real limitations enough to know what you really can and cannot do. I can say all I want "I can walk on the sun and survive," but it will never be true.