The E-Word

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This is good stuff, and I agree with it. I don't think Autistics lack empathy entirely at all, and that many possess "hyper-empathy" that may present as a lack because out of a survival instinct, they "shut down" what actually can be seen by others as empathy.

It's kind of like the reverse of "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" but if the duck is hidden in the reeds you don't see it walking, and may not hear it quack, so it doesn't appear as if the duck is there at all.

As a diagnostic criteria, they could well describe it as "hidden empathy," but how do you know it's there until you see it? It may not "come out" until a person is in therapy for a while. So it's fine with me if they want to call it a lack for diagnostic purposes, but recognize it can still be there, but buried. Perhaps they may be convinced eventually to change "lack of" to "apparent lack of," or "suppressed empathy."

You all made some very good points.

Regarding my own "empathy": it largely depends on the person and situation in question. If I can really relate to what someone else has experienced, then it's obviously easier than if they're describing something I know nothing about personally. However, I can imagine (somewhat) what it would be like to be in (insert new situation here), so I guess I can be somewhat empathic.

For some reason, it's often easier to be empathic on this site than with people I know IRL. Maybe it's the "shared experience" thing, maybe reading people's experiences is less overwhelming (and therefore makes them easier to process) than hearing them,...maybe it's because I've come to genuinely care about a lot of people here.

IRL, there are only a few people I feel genuine empathy for without having to "try" too hard (and sometimes, said empathy can be overwhelming--I think there's a lot to that "Intense World Theory").

It's possible to have empathy but not know how to deal with it.

Case in point: Tam Elbrun--STAR TREK: TNG

I can read people's faces just fine a lot of the time, but I rarely feel sympathy for people, I can only guess when a normal person would. This showed a lot more when I was younger than it does now, but I still don't feel it. Doubt I ever will.

I believe that NTs who aren't empathetic towards me aren't justified to say that I'm not empathetic. I feel empathy if I have an understanding of their situtation which I usually don't because NTs see the world differently than me and I have a hard time understanding them. A lot of NTs seem to care less about other people than me. I would never purposely hurt anyone emotionally or physically even though a lot of people do it for pleasure. I may prefer to be by myself, but I don't gain at the expense of others like a lot of people do.

This makes the most sense, or at least to me - I don't lack empathy, I understand what feelings are, the main problem, is unsure of what to do with that.

The "lack of empathy" as described in this thread doesn't sound like Autism or Asperger's at all... it sounds more like Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

At issue is the WORD empathy. It is confusing, has numerous connotations beyond its clinical meaning, and does not offer good information to people who support individuals on the spectrum.

It seems in this short conversation, we've uncovered that "lack of empathy" can mean a wide range of different things to different people. If you're going to diagnose somebody with something, instead of using a nonspecific and confusing euphemism for the whole picture, it would be helpful to spell it out. For instance, I'm not a clinician, but have learned from this thread and other posts here that the following may apply better than "lacks empathy," or even "problems expressing empathy," which is still awfully nonspecific.

- difficulty decoding nonverbal communications in others
- difficulty understanding/decoding emotions in self or others (may not be able to name anger, sadness, etc.)
- difficulty prioritizing responses to other's feelings (reacts to noise of crying before reacting to sadness)
- becoming overwhelmed by emotions of self or others
- difficulty processing general information about what is happening to someone else and how one might feel if in their place

This may be expressed through:
- confusing responses to the emotions of others (e.g. may yell at someone who is crying)
- confusing expressions of one's own emotions (e.g. may laugh when uncomfortable)
- shutting down/ melting down in the presence of strong emotion
- no response or delayed response to a situation that usually produces feelings (e.g. no or delayed response to pain, danger, horror movies, etc.)

Again, NOT what the police psychologist meant in the OP, nor is it helpful to have the above issues percieved as such.

At issue is the WORD empathy. It is confusing, has numerous connotations beyond its clinical meaning, and does not offer good information to people who support individuals on the spectrum.

It seems in this short conversation, we've uncovered that "lack of empathy" can mean a wide range of different things to different people. If you're going to diagnose somebody with something, instead of using a nonspecific and confusing euphemism for the whole picture, it would be helpful to spell it out. For instance, I'm not a clinician, but have learned from this thread and other posts here that the following may apply better than "lacks empathy," or even "problems expressing empathy," which is still awfully nonspecific.

- difficulty decoding nonverbal communications in others
- difficulty understanding/decoding emotions in self or others (may not be able to name anger, sadness, etc.)
- difficulty prioritizing responses to other's feelings (reacts to noise of crying before reacting to sadness)
- becoming overwhelmed by emotions of self or others
- difficulty processing general information about what is happening to someone else and how one might feel if in their place

This may be expressed through:
- confusing responses to the emotions of others (e.g. may yell at someone who is crying)
- confusing expressions of one's own emotions (e.g. may laugh when uncomfortable)
- shutting down/ melting down in the presence of strong emotion
- no response or delayed response to a situation that usually produces feelings (e.g. no or delayed response to pain, danger, horror movies, etc.)

Again, NOT what the police psychologist meant in the OP, nor is it helpful to have the above issues percieved as such.

Behavioral biologists believe that manifested behavior is literally all that matters in determing what an organism. The so-called "you are literally what you do" theory. Thus, if AS people do not show empathy, then it is the same as if we do not actually possess it. Thats why it will remain part of the clinical diagnosis. True AS people do not or cannot show natural empathy. The reasons for this don't really matter. It is a consistent life long trait.

While this is a reasonable explanation as to why it's there, it does AS people a grave disservice - and could still be expressed in a scientific manner without the use of such a nonspecific, nonscientific word with such heavy emotional connotations.

I'm not a behavioral biologist, but I disagree strongly that the reasons don't matter.

One of the reasons I've been so hesitant to tell my psychiatrist that I think I may have an ASD (most likely Asperger's Syndrome or HFA) is because of empathy. I have a lot of empathy & always have. When I was three or four I saw the movie "Bambi" & cried & cried when his mother was shot because I felt so bad that he was going to have to grow up alone, with no one to take care of him. At around 5 or 6, I saw "The Land Before Time" & felt so bad when they were all separated from their families. I could imagine how horrible it would be for me to be in their situations & have to grow up without my mom. I feel horrible when other people are made fun of because I feel as if I'm being the one being made fun of, even if the reason is something that has nothing to do with me. Because of those reasons, even though an ASD would describe my entire life, I worry I would not be given a diagnosis. From the people I've met online who have ASD's, they do have empathy, most of them anyways, & some of them have as much, or even more, than I do, & these were people who were diagnosed with it. So, I really dislike the fact that empathy is considered a part of the diagnostic criteria. From what I've read, people with ASD's have trouble expressing empathy, but they do not lack empathy, & that is exactly my case. I often come across as unfeeling or uncaring, purely without meaning to, when in fact I care deeply. The only way I'm usually able to express my empathy is through writing because verbally, it does not come out.

The reason that behavioral biology interprets things this way is that so far we have no means of seeing or reading the thoughts of people and/or other sentient animals such as cetaceans and great apes, elephants, etc. Animals with large and complicated brains like humans. All that can be inferred about their mental state comes from observations of how they behave in a natural state. While such an apparent simplification may be unsatisfying to some, the very great success this approach has had in explaining biological systems speaks volumes to its validity. The moral here is that what you do matters far more than what you think.

NOT if your receiving counseling. It's possible that some Apies who are getting therapy will not be correctly diagnosed as AS because their counselor may realize after talking a while that he/she does have empathy. I do understand that the diagnoses is based off how others perceive us but I think that claiming that us Aspies lack empathy in the diagnostic criteria is only causing more misunderstandings about AS. I think there's enough misinformation about AS out there without the DSM contributing to it

I am not so sure. As MrXxx pointed out that It (lack of empathy) is not likely to ever be removed from the DMS, for a good reason. True aspies lack empathy, which is a core trait of the diagnosis. If you have empathy, but have difficulty expressing it, then maybe you do not have AS. It has something to do with how our brains are wired, leading to an inability to read the emotions or meanings of other peoples intentions. It is a very important and basic fact about AS.

More simply - this: empathy does NOT mean this in most situations:an inability to read the emotions or meanings of other peoples intentions

Hmmm? I agree that quite a few people who are "self-diagnosed" AS on this board seem to possess what is defined as empathy for others, including board members in conversations. I do not. I was diagnosed by a team of mental health professionals over a long period of time (years), obviously defining something like 80 AS traits observed, (not just a few), before a diagnosis was confirmed. They obviously concluded that I lack empathy for others.
A lifetime of people saying things to me like "you are not listening", "Why don't you care?", "He just doesn't give a ----- about anyone, except maybe himself !"
These might also be indicators of lacking empathy, as well. Thus, I have concluded that, while still having sympathy for others, a person like myself, diagnosed with AS,can have a serious impairment in relating with neurotypical people because I lack empathy.

Scott, just in case this is a genuine misunderstanding and not really a disagreement - I think you're missing my point entirely. What I am saying is that the word empathy carries too many connotations to be used in a scientific and diagnostic setting. What you describe is certainly true of many people on the spectrum, I am not disputing that - in fact I agree with it.

However, the word "empathy" is in general use in many different ways (think of Star Trek, for example.) In the instance of the OP, having "no empathy" was used to describe a sociopath who had deliberately poured acid on a stranger - a very different situation than someone who might have difficulty communicating emotion or understanding when it is communicated. It is crucial for people on the spectrum that these two definitions of empathy be differentiated, and probably the best way to do so is to change the language to something that more specifically describes the perception/communication issues in autism.

Language is a mutable thing - when common usage changes the meaning of a word, in the response is to use a different word in its place.