who is more assertive on the whole, Aspies or NTs?

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I agree it's not really fair to glibly see another person as simply assertive or not.....though I'd expect it to be harder for an Aspie to hold their own with assertiveness. If I have poor interpersonal skills, I'm not going to find it easy to be assertive - caving in or going ape are much more likely. If ytou were being assertive when you stood up for yourself, I guess people wouldn't be shocked - they'd just be surprised at the adult way in which you took command of the situation, calmed everybody down and resolved the problem to everybodys satisfaction. I think it's quite comnmon for non-assertive people to flip from passive to aggressive and back depending on the pressure, which really can shock people, because they get to think that a normally passive person is incapable of biting back. So I suspect that Aspies in general have trouble with assertiveness and tend to stay in the land of passivity, until the world has taken one liberty too many, when they explode. Black-and-white thinking can also get in the way - it's very hard for me to really appreciate that most other people are neither heroes nor villains but just humans. The logical response to a hero is passivity, because they'll never do anything to hurt you. The logical response to a villain is to use all means at your disposal - however unseemly - to wipe them out. Of course it's only a generalisation, and assertiveness can be learned, if the opportunity and the attitude are there. But it might not be easy.

NTs certainly are more outspoken.

Agreed.

I am particularly vexed by the gender bias as well. If a male stands up for himself, he's assertive and self assured. If a woman does the same it is considered aggressive and argumentative.

I am often considered a push over becasue I pick my battles - I let things of lesser importance slide because I see no need to expend my energy on them. When something pushed me over that edge though, I will stand up for myself and put my foot down. My family sees this as random - I see it as very specific. And, when I do finally put my foot down people do consider it aggressive and combative. Maybe that has something to do with acting outside of their expectations of me... I dunno. I have no problem speaking my mind and confronting people when I feel it necessary.

Have you actually seen this happen though? I would have thought that a really good display of assertiveness was enough to impress most people.......what you're doing when you're assertive is to hold your position while using tact and diplomacy to win the hearts and minds of those who don't quite have the maturity to keep the situation from turning into a nasty fight. A woman who can calm others down is more likely to be admired, I would think.

Though if you just mean aggression, there may be some truth in it. It's unseemly in either sex, but even a nonsexist like me can often feel that unseemly behavour is somehow more objectionable in a woman. Shouldn't be like that of course, but I can't help my feelings, and some things just feel worse coming from a woman. It works both ways - women are allowed to blubber but men aren't......I feel that prejudice inside me too, but that one really is a shame.......having to bottle pain like that is a horrible thing to lay onto men.

I would actually say that, although Aspies certainly have the inclination to be assertive, institutional bias acts as a deterrent to them asserting themselves. Many Aspies tend to feel persecuted by society and the inherent bias against people with mental health issues, so the issue is beyond a simple one-on-one (or one-on-few) interaction. Think of African-Americans 50 years ago or gays 20 years ago, in an institutional setting (such as the workplace). Standing up for themselves and their viewpoint might have brought further repercussions in terms of firing, physical violence, yelling, further shunning, etc...we don't have the same institutional protections, or ingrained taboos that make the mockery of an AS person unacceptable. So we gauge our response accordingly.

Many times, I've found that I had to be "assertive" when an NT person objected to me doing something which he perceived as being counter to common sense, and I disagreed. I have challenged them to explain their rationale for the preferred behaviour, which made me appear stubborn and eccentric rather than assertive. So my occasional lack of assertiveness may also be predicated on the desire to not appear stubborn and eccentric - because I can't always intuitively tell when someone is offering me good advice versus when it's psychological harassment. Sometimes, I just hope I've made a lucky guess

There is no doubt that gender bias goes both ways. And both are equally unacceptable.

As far as seeing gender bias in action - I have. I've been a victim of it more than once in the workplace. The worst was a totally misoginistic boss with a religious superiority bias fueling his beliefs and actions. Men's opinions were taken at face value, mine were systematically challenged and require proof before they would even be considered - usually presented as a smack down during a company wide meeting. He really enjoyed the humiliation factor in it. I have also been called aggressive when presenting and supporting my ideas - I meet critiques head on when I feel they are unwarranted or if someone misunderstands what I have presented. I am not rude or condescending - I will take the time to craft the least offensive replies possible. And, my replies are thought of as arguementative. The men I have worked side by side with have actually approached me- or written notes - about how unfairly I've been treated - and they feel bad about it because they do not experience that level of derision. I've been treated this way by both male and female bosses. Maybe its just me but that is highly doubtful. I have found that these bullies push hard enough to make a woman simply shut up. And, in my jobs, it worked. The other women just kind of wilt and shut up. I'm not the wilting type. And that is seen as a 'negative' trait where, in the men, it is considered a positive assertive trait.

In general, woman are expected to be yeilding and compliant. Women 'acting like men' have a whole world's worth of ingrained bias to contend with.

Good answer. It's so different where I work.....it's a university - a sizeable majority of the bigwigs are still probably men, but assertive (and downright bossy) women seem to be as well-accepted as the guys round here. Down on my level the women are in a majority anyway. In my first job the female senior tech would frequently push the male chief tech around.

It's a shame your experiences are so bad. I wonder if this is more an American thing? I have no experience outside my 2 jobs....I haven't heard anybody complaining about gender bias over here, though in my preferred non-mainstream social circles, the women aren't usually the type to get pushed around.

This describes my level of assertiveness spot-on. I'm not too skilled at being balanced when it comes to asserting myself.

Yes, I can definitely see this happening, and I was like that A LOT in my early 20s (before my dx at 27 yrs) - I would keep pressing people for more specifics when they were giving me a subtle rejection - would ask "what do you mean by [cryptic statement X] exactly?" then the person would repeat their same statement almost verbatim...I didn't take "the hint" so that made me come across as too assertive, even obnoxious, because the unwritten expectation was that I took the hint and left well enough alone. Later in my 20s, I would just reply with "OK, well that's your prerogative" and not say another word. That actually led people to react better to me, sometimes warm up to me - ironic as hell!!

I'm more on the assertive side myself, when I'm trying to make a point and no one is listening. I'm normally quiet (ha ha, who really is a chatterbox here?), so people pay attention when I do something like that.