How much "Theory of Mind" can an autistic person l

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I don't understand what you're trying to say with the video clip.

You couldn't exist without ToM.

Just think of the mundane tasks that you do on a daily basis, for example, a simple trip to the store.

When you shop for an item, take it to the clerk for check out, and go through a simple business exchange; is there not a practical social application of ToM at work ? I'm not talking about lab tests constructed to study multitasking and introduction to novelty among other things.

TheSunAlsoRises

Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on 20 May 2012, 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It depends on how one thinks; how THAT persons brain is wired. The latter part of the video, where Holmes predicts the moves of his opponent is my focal point.

There are many dimensions to ToM THAT have YET to be explored.

Expectations which converge into Assumptions.


TheSunAlsRises

The following statements are true: 1) Not everyone thinks the same and has the same opinion as you. 2)Not everyone knows what you know because you haven't experienced different things.

I understand how a child with autism who doesn't know these things would believe everyone thinks like them and knows what they know. What I don't understand is how someone would STILL think the same way after learning the above statements are true. Logic should come in to play when you remember the statements above. Unless you forget the above statements or can't logically apply the statements to your thoughts.

Researchers and scientists have studied Autistic individuals where your number(1) and (2) are severely disrupted. Your (1) and (2) can appear as (1) everyone thinks the same and has the same opinion as you(I) and (2) everyone knows what you(I) know because you(I) have experienced the same things ....in Autistics with or without intellectual disabilities but impairment in social interaction(specific areas that will have to be broken down further) is always present.

There are Autistics who exist THAT for all intent and purposes one would come to the conclusion THAT ToM was not present in them. Well, it isn't in a lab setting THAT inherently test the weaknesses of the Autistic. ToM exist(at some level) based on everyday situations for those capable of( some measure) of socially interacting. IS ToM present ? Yes. Is it consistent ? No. Why? because it's been disrupted in early development.

Frankly, there is a belief THAT a large number of Autists lack ToM. I suspect it's considered an unspoken defining characteristic of ASDs.

I have my suspicions BUT everything is on the table at this point.

TheSunAlsoRises

Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on 21 May 2012, 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Everyone lacks TOM to be honest but it seems like none ASDs only lack it when it comes to different brain wiring or something they have never experienced and also the fact when they do go through a experience, they expect everyone else to do it the way they did it. But they also expect people to know about celebrities too or stuff about history or else they're stupid.


I was shocked kids didn't know Titanic actually existed because they thought it was just a movie but I figured, they're not stupid, their school just never taught them that so they were ignorant. But lot of people were saying how dumb they were. I was even shocked to hear at IMDB even grown ups didn't know the ship existed so they were laughing about people dying in the movie until they got chewed out for it and then they were embarrassed after they were told it actually happened. But everyone else was lacking TOM while I was wondering how could they not know? I guess they never saw books about it or read fictional stories about it or learn it in school and I guess no one ever told them about it. But I didn't think they were stupid, just ignorant. So I was the one with TOM while lot of people lacked it. But I guess I lacked it too because I was shocked and I would say this was normal than ASD because other people expected everyone else to know about it too.

Psychology has a specific definition for ToM and under THAT definition IT has been stated consistently THAT those with Autism Lack ToM( meaning do not have ToM). Recently, i saw a quote by a scientist state "diminished theory of mind" which is a move in the right direction in my humble opinion.



TheSunAlsoRises

I'm quite the opposite. Before I know someone I assume they're going to disagree with or criticize me if I state my interests or opinions. People regard me as the robotic person who never says anything, I'm sure.

I personally feel that ToM is a rather bogus attempt by NTs to explain how Autistics think and react. The problem is, they will never know anything except as an observer - they can't think and feel how we do. Just because we think differently doesn't mean that we don't have feelings or social understandings connected to our thoughts and beliefs. ToM seems to describe us as emotionless robots.

One Autistic advantage I find is that emotions don't clog up my decision making. But it doesn't mean I don't have emotions connected to things, I can just put them in the background and get on with things. Just because a person doesn't physically display emotions doesn't mean they don't have them.

Another aspect is that many Autistics tend to over emote, so they put a lid on their emotions to keep them under control. Give someone like that a ToM test and you may conclude that they don't emotionally connect with things, when that may be just the opposite.

We are much more than lab tests and presumptions…

Dr. Grandin said, something to the effect THAT in social situations, she felt like an Anthropologist on Mars. IF martians judged Dr. Grandin by their own psychological-biological-behavorial phenotype YET hers is different then i would expect inherent problems to occur.

Ironically, Dr. Grandin's statement works both ways.

TheSunAlsoRises

After analysing what is meant by "Theory of Mind" I have come to regard it as the NT's method of manipulating and fooling other people. It is also the mechanism they have developed in order to perfect their ability to lie effectively.

ToM (in Autists), as it differs from Non-Autists, is presented all over this website in written conversations between members.

Autism is considered a disability BUT here is the rub(a helluva a lot of Autists) have abilities THAT allow them to out perform Non-Autists in different areas. YET, many Autistics are unaware of this because they are isolated to a degree, focused on their own weaknesses, and compare themselves to others based on Non-Autistic standards..... which makes them unaware of their own unique abilities.

Usually, when someone has a disability, it produces individual and overall areas of performance below non-Autistic standards and IF lucky, one might have isolated abilities THAT places them on a 'normal' level of performance.

Autism is something science has never dealt with before in more ways than one.



TheSunAlsoRises

Sometimes a problem comes up with my boyfriend/fiancee where I'll ask him what he thinks or what he's feeling about a certain thing and he'll be annoyed because it's so "obvious". He's patient for the most part, but I think it wears on him sometimes.

ToM comes more from infant development studies, not study into autism per se. It does exist and there are tests to demonstrate it - for instance, you point at a mirror, a pre-ToM infant will look at your finger, a post-ToM infant will look where you're pointing. This requires only a basic level of ToM awareness but it still requires that the mind is computing for the viewpoints of other minds (although in this case only in a purely spatial manner). Doing so consciously would, I think, exorbitantly tax the mind and require signifigant delays in processing. I don't think ToM can be absent in autistics on the face of it. I think it's more a case of differently wired minds being incapable of doing calculations based on a different set of wiring. Ultimately ToM rests on being able to calculate what other minds are doing or experiencing, and it seems to me that it would be more than a little off when the neurology isn't the same. It's sort of like trying to use Windows to solve a problem in Linux.

My first ex also used to ask what I was thinking and I would get mad at him about it. Now I wonder if it was because he had a hard time reading people.

Reason why I got mad was because I hated that he was being paranoid and I didn't like him butting into my business. I think whatever I think is my own business and I don't want anyone to know my thoughts. If I am off in my la la land, I don't want people to intrude and ask me what am I thinking. What is in my head stays in my head and I want no one to know about it.

Then of course I felt better when I saw my ex ask his own friend what he is thinking because I saw it was more about him than me so it wasn't like he was misreading me and that I was showing the wrong body language making him think something was wrong.

I mean I would just be sitting and minding my own business and all of a sudden he would ask me "What are you thinking?" It wouldn't even be during a conversation or when we are disusing something. Plus I have never asked someone what they are thinking, I would ask them what is their problem or whats wrong with something or what I said or did or what is it with their facial expression or asking them "what?" when they have a look on their face. I even asked my husband once why does he always open his mouth and I acted it out and he told me it was because I say things lot of people wouldn't normally say. Then when I noticed he wasn't doing it anymore, I told him that and asked him why doesn't he anymore and he said he got used to me so it doesn't surprise him anymore what I say. I remember my little brother used to do that too when he was in kindergarten to second grade and I wonder now if it was because I also shocked him with things I would say to him. It never occurred to me to ask him then about it because I thought that expression was funny and I never knew it meant something. I just thought it was something random. I thought the same about my husband too until I decided to make a comment about it. I said the same about his tone of voice when it go high pitched. I told him I love it when his voice does that and then he told me it goes high pitched when he is upset. I learned that cue. Now I know when he is upset.