AS Diagnostic Criteria - More suited for men?
musicforanna
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21 Aug 2012, 5:48 am
^^I disagree. Because the way they have put things, they did not take into account that males and females just behave differently in general and how that changes things with a person coping with getting through life. So if you're basing all your criteria on the mold of male behavior, then someone like me, a female, gets missed, as I do not fit the mold of female behavior.
Ya'll should do yourselves a favor, go onto the Women's forum, we have a thread on there talking about "what age did you get diagnosed?" and compare it to the ages that males usually get diagnosed at. (here's a hint, there are a lot of women who get diagnosed much later, like in their 20's+ instead of being 10-- I myself was dx'ed at 17 in 2001)
21 Aug 2012, 8:24 am
musicforanna wrote:
^^I disagree. Because the way they have put things, they did not take into account that males and females just behave differently in general and how that changes things with a person coping with getting through life. So if you're basing all your criteria on the mold of male behavior, then someone like me, a female, gets missed, as I do not fit the mold of female behavior.
Ya'll should do yourselves a favor, go onto the Women's forum, we have a thread on there talking about "what age did you get diagnosed?" and compare it to the ages that males usually get diagnosed at. (here's a hint, there are a lot of women who get diagnosed much later, like in their 20's+ instead of being 10-- I myself was dx'ed at 17 in 2001)
Ya'll should do yourselves a favor, go onto the Women's forum, we have a thread on there talking about "what age did you get diagnosed?" and compare it to the ages that males usually get diagnosed at. (here's a hint, there are a lot of women who get diagnosed much later, like in their 20's+ instead of being 10-- I myself was dx'ed at 17 in 2001)
I think this is, because we male aspies are not really respected by the society for our passive introverted way of living.
General spoken, I think the society is more open for females than for males to be introvert
21 Aug 2012, 5:21 pm
TPE2 wrote:
I think that all this talk of "AS is different in women" does not make much sense.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
The symptoms "presenting differently" is NOT the same thing as having no symptoms at all.
And seeing as how a big part of AS is a social/communication disorder, it does not "make sense" to discount the effects of how boys and girls are "socialized" differently and have different expectations in society. Plus, there's a good chance that biology plays a role; there are general tendencies present in NT males and females, so it follows that the same could be true of AS males and females. It doesn't "make sense" to define two separate disorders to describe what are essentially the same deficits (at least not until we have solid physical evidence that they have completely different origins).
I don't see how a passive girl who never talks is less impaired than an aggressive boy who talks to everyone whether they want to hear about his interests or not. I don't see how it's "less Aspergian" to be obsessed with horses than to be obsessed with trains. I don't see how getting absorbed in facts and figures to the point you forget to take a shower is autistic, but getting so absorbed in a fantasy fiction novel series that you forget to pay your bills is not autistic.
Most of the supposed "difference" between "male AS" and "female AS" are merely superficial.
Blah.
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Verdandi
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21 Aug 2012, 7:10 pm
Girls are less likely to be diagnosed because professionals tend to take the symptoms less seriously when observed in girls, or tend to attribute them to other causes.
A lot of this is frustratingly typical sexism:
http://phys.org/news205403863.html
21 Aug 2012, 7:44 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
I think that all this talk of "AS is different in women" does not make much sense.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
The symptoms "presenting differently" is NOT the same thing as having no symptoms at all.
And seeing as how a big part of AS is a social/communication disorder, it does not "make sense" to discount the effects of how boys and girls are "socialized" differently and have different expectations in society. Plus, there's a good chance that biology plays a role; there are general tendencies present in NT males and females, so it follows that the same could be true of AS males and females. It doesn't "make sense" to define two separate disorders to describe what are essentially the same deficits (at least not until we have solid physical evidence that they have completely different origins).
I don't see how a passive girl who never talks is less impaired than an aggressive boy who talks to everyone whether they want to hear about his interests or not. I don't see how it's "less Aspergian" to be obsessed with horses than to be obsessed with trains. I don't see how getting absorbed in facts and figures to the point you forget to take a shower is autistic, but getting so absorbed in a fantasy fiction novel series that you forget to pay your bills is not autistic.
Most of the supposed "difference" between "male AS" and "female AS" are merely superficial.
Blah.
It is known, that male and female embryos/fetus have a different development. Up until the 8th week we are all "female", as the testosterone in boys starts to develop at 8 weeks of pregnancy, which is called "regression" in the literature. The left brain-hemisphere of prenatal boys develops slower than the left brain-hemiphere of girls. The left brain-hemisphere provides language, executive functioning and others. There is a neuronal circuit connecting hearing, languge and being able to engage socially (vagus-nerv). As the left brain-hemisphere is more vulnerable in general as it develops slower than the right brain-hemisphere, and the male one is developing slower than the female one, whatever contributes to autism in pregnancy (now I am thinking of prenatal toxic testosterone, but I can be wrong, as if it is a contributor, it will not be the only one) can affect the males brain being slower developing for a longer amount of time and causing occuring from the same procedure a different outcome than in females, which makes it the same disorder but as all individuals with autism are different from each other, it could be just a matter of timing of exposure of certain "chemaicals" in relation to the development of the brain.
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Last edited by Eloa on 21 Aug 2012, 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
21 Aug 2012, 7:48 pm
Quote
whirlingmind wrote:
Simon Baron-Cohen" This suggests that able women with ASC may be more motivated and may put more effort into developing compensatory skills that help them to appear "socially typical’’. Hence, females with ASC may show different developmental trajectories compared to their male counterparts. Indeed, experienced clinicians have observed that one reason females (girls or women) with ASC may be less easily identified is because of their ability to "camouflage’’ their autism [15,16]. This type of camouflaging may involve conscious, observational learning of how to act in a social setting and by adopting social roles and following social scripts [66].
"women with ASC may be more motivated and may put more effort into developing compensatory skills that help them to appear "socially typical’"
Part of the purpose of Wrong Planet regardless of gender "Social Skills and Making Friends
Having Autism means you may not have great social skills, but that doesn't mean you can't learn them! Discuss friendship and social skills here!"
Many AS men also think about the behavior of other NTs, for example hand gestures and facial expressions, small talk, and make an attempt at finding a way of purposely emulating these things to fit in. I think alot of aspies, male or female might think to them selves "Why does everyone else do certain things, or say certain things that I do not? What can I do to fit in more?"
whirlingmind wrote:
http://www.yourlittleprofessor.com/girls.html:
In contrast, boys tend to be more 'predatory' and therefore more likely to tease a boy with Asperger's. Because a girl's friends do their best to help her, her parents and/or teachers may never see symptoms - or may not see them often enough - that would warrant a clinical diagnosis.
In contrast, boys tend to be more 'predatory' and therefore more likely to tease a boy with Asperger's. Because a girl's friends do their best to help her, her parents and/or teachers may never see symptoms - or may not see them often enough - that would warrant a clinical diagnosis.
Boys tease girls aswell.
As harsh as it sounds (I am not saying this should happen), But I think when an Aspie is bullied, the bullying will decrease their externally observable symptoms. Example, if an aspie is talking for a long time about their interest, a bully might insult them for that, or even do something physical to make them "stop". If this happens, the next time the aspie will think of that hurtful experience, and try to avoid doing what caused this to happen. I a previous job I had, there was a guy who was home schooled and did not have bullies on a regular basis, he seemed to be a very stereotypical aspie, one that you would say they went too far with in Hollywood. It was so obvious that nobody would bully him at work, but they did talk about it behind his back. Girls can be bullied by other girls too, but yes I think a girl might be more likely to find other girls that are nice and will support them. But then again, guys are supposed to mash their heads together before football and things like that, aspie guys don't really do this so much. Aspie guys could end up having alot of friends that are girls.
Wanna go shopping?! ok..... I guess...........
Rattus wrote:
It really does annoy me because I have no doubt I'd have been diagnosed as a small child had I of been male, I would certainly have been diagnosed the first time I was in the mental health system at 15. My parents effectively gave them what is a run down of ASD symptoms but because I was female they assumed I must be personality disordered. It's taken nearly 10 years to get my diagnosis changed.
and,
musicforanna wrote:
Ya'll should do yourselves a favor, go onto the Women's forum, we have a thread on there talking about "what age did you get diagnosed?" and compare it to the ages that males usually get diagnosed at. (here's a hint, there are a lot of women who get diagnosed much later, like in their 20's+ instead of being 10-- I myself was dx'ed at 17 in 2001)
A late diagnosis can happen to both men and women, but women could be overlooked more often.
I never heard of Aspergers when I was 10.
It can also depend on the awareness of autism in their community regardless of gender. I am a male, I lived way up in the mountains somewhere in a wilderness area with one paved road in the county. There were countless meetings with my teachers and parents, Aspergers was never brought up. I fully discovered it my self when I was 19. Also there are some areas where people won't believe in these sorts of things too, making a diagnoses very difficult. "Thats not real"
whirlingmind wrote:
And BTW, yes the studies and research to date have all been done on males. It's no wonder females are having such a hard time.
That is a very good point.
musicforanna wrote:
I disagree. Because the way they have put things, they did not take into account that males and females just behave differently in general and how that changes things with a person coping with getting through life. So if you're basing all your criteria on the mold of male behavior, then someone like me, a female, gets missed, as I do not fit the mold of female behavior.
I don't always fit the mold for my gender either. I am not outwardly aggressive, I don't talk about how hot the women are all the time, I don't want a Mustang.
"males and females just behave differently in general"
.
So in short,
NT males and females obviously have differences in behavior, so should aspies. So here is the question, are there any psychologically Aspergers specific differences?
There are differences in society with how males and females are treated and have to deal with others. The sort of image, is that an aspie is a male. Females are overlooked more often (this can happen to males too)
Anyway, I think I have found some e-books to read.
musicforanna
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22 Aug 2012, 11:16 am
XFilesGeek wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
I think that all this talk of "AS is different in women" does not make much sense.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
After all, "having AS" IS "having the symptoms and behaviors of AS" - AS is not a kind of independent entity that exists even if you don't have the symptoms associated wth AS (yes, AS is suposed to be a neurological difference with genetic roots, but for all practical effects is a behavioural condition, definid by symptoms alone).
Then, if you don't have the symptoms associated with AS, you don't have AS.
The symptoms "presenting differently" is NOT the same thing as having no symptoms at all.
And seeing as how a big part of AS is a social/communication disorder, it does not "make sense" to discount the effects of how boys and girls are "socialized" differently and have different expectations in society. Plus, there's a good chance that biology plays a role; there are general tendencies present in NT males and females, so it follows that the same could be true of AS males and females. It doesn't "make sense" to define two separate disorders to describe what are essentially the same deficits (at least not until we have solid physical evidence that they have completely different origins).
I don't see how a passive girl who never talks is less impaired than an aggressive boy who talks to everyone whether they want to hear about his interests or not. I don't see how it's "less Aspergian" to be obsessed with horses than to be obsessed with trains. I don't see how getting absorbed in facts and figures to the point you forget to take a shower is autistic, but getting so absorbed in a fantasy fiction novel series that you forget to pay your bills is not autistic.
Most of the supposed "difference" between "male AS" and "female AS" are merely superficial.
Blah.
BOOM. You said it better than I could have.
Also, the person who brought up the point of bullying. I tried to keep things tucked under, as I was severely bullied growing up. At some points, I was just on a button called "survive" until I got out of those vile places.
Female introversion was also not accepted where I went to school. You're supposed to squeak in a high pitched voice about how you like shopping, boys, act dippy, and things like that. To be honest, I always got along better with males than females anyway, but usually the more shyer introverted type of males, not the vain boisterous aggressive sports fan type of males who can't seem to shut the heck up.
22 Aug 2012, 11:43 am
I think the bias is due to stereotypical views of those diagnosing rather than the criteria itself. I would agree that the nature of the special interest may differ but the high intensity remains the same. I also think the way in which sexuality affects presentation is not often considered, it is just assumed that aspies are heterosexual.
Webalina
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22 Aug 2012, 6:07 pm
Verdandi wrote:
Girls are less likely to be diagnosed because professionals tend to take the symptoms less seriously when observed in girls, or tend to attribute them to other causes.
A lot of this is frustratingly typical sexism:
http://phys.org/news205403863.html
A lot of this is frustratingly typical sexism:
http://phys.org/news205403863.html
This is the same reason that women die of heart attacks at a higher rate than men. Men present with chest pain, nausea and shortness of breath, and are given all kinds of tests and a diagnosis of heart disease. A woman presents with the same symptoms, and are given a diagnosis of anxiety or depression and a prescription for Xanax.
