Incidence of AS in Jewish population

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I'm half-Jew on father's side. Both sides of family exhibit Aspie traits. My mom's people are Native American btw. I think people who aren't Jewish don't understand their is more to Jewishness than culture and religion. It is also a race or ethnicity. There are a number of genetic linked diseases that are more common in the Jewish population. I believe that comes from the pressure at least with earlier generations to marry only other Jews. In small populations that causes harm because the recessive, bad genes tend to be expressed more often. So with that in mind I could see why autism MIGHT be more common in Jews than say other races.

Question for the other Jews here- has your doctor ever suggested you be tested for the various Jewish genetic problems? A friend who is "full Jew" says it is a common thing to get tested & especially when about to be married to another Jew. No dr has ever asked my heritage. It makes me wonder how many half Jews could have the same illness and never know it because doctors don't acknowledge their heritage unless they have a last name like Goldberg.

YEAH, we all recognize that most jewish people have some hebrew blood. Afterall, you DO talk about abraham(Who also started the arab line), Isacc, and Jacob, and Jacob WAS renamed Israel, hence the name of the land he settled in.

I did talk about mediteranian descent, etc...

As for the idea about tracking genetic diseases, check out tay sachs on wikipedia. Apparantly there is an international database that COVERTLY monitors this! You can get tested, and they give you a number. You can give them a number of someone you want to marry and, if you both tested positive, they simply tell you it isn't a match! Outside of the fact that it allows spreading of the genes for tay sachs, it sounds like a good system.

And YEAH, there are almost certainly people that are part hebrew, and don't know it.

Steve

Steve,

I've heard of the Tay Sach database. I actually considered getting tested but since I don't plan on having children it seemed kind of stupid to ask for the test. Except I sometimes think too neurotically and think what if I have a mild form of it? Interestingly drs have been trying to diagnose me over the past few years with CAH which is another genetic problem common in Ashkenazis. Something like 25% of women with CAH are Ashkenazi. When it comes to the testing it comes back to if you are half Jew no one sees you as Jewish (including my half Jew dr who is considered full Jew because her mother is Jewish). Do you get what I'm saying? It's intimidating to even ask for the Jewish tests because of other people's attitudes as if somehow they are more worthy to have a Jewish illness because the are REAL Jews.

I think only someone who is half-something else could understand where I am coming from. Like people who are half black half caucasian or like on my mom's side of family those people they call halfbreeds or mixed bloods (of Native American decent). Being Jewish is almost as ridiculous because you are considered not REAL without a full pedigree. I wonder if half blacks (for lack of a better term at the moment) have to contend with being intimidated when asking for Sickle Cell anemia tests? I think drs should really look more at ethinicity and be watchful of certain genetically predisposed conditions in their patients.

I'm pretty sure the main reason why Hebrew fell out of use as a spoken language was simply due to the nature of a diaspora. Yiddish and Ladino (which were at one time extremely common among Jews) both use the Hebrew alphabet and are heavily influenced by Hebrew, along with other languages. That sort of linguistic hybridity is not uncommon and doesn't necessarily indicate any definitive conclusions other than the fact that languages (along with cultures) are fluid entities. Hebrew was used for religious services even when it wasn't used for everyday conversation, in any case. Prior to immigrating to America most Jewish men from Eastern Europe were well-educated in reading biblical Hebrew. In traditional Jewish Eastern European culture studying Talmud full-time was considered the ideal for males (although, like all ideals, it wasn't always fulfilled).

That was pre-America; obviously Americanization and assimilation has altered Jewish culture a great deal, as with any other immigrant group. I recently wrote a research paper on Sephardic Jews in America and found they had all sorts of problems organizing formal religious education in America even though it was a big deal in the countries where they came from. In a nutshell, American pluralism and pressure to assimilate caused internal disunity and less interest in traditional religious education. That might explain Steve's impressions of Jewish culture, as I'm guessing he's American. I will say though, that what he describes isn't necessarily what I personally have found to be the norm. I was in Hebrew School since kindergarten and most synagogues I know of require several years of Hebrew instruction prior to bar/bat mitzvah, at the very least. And I'm Reform. BTW, even someone with decent knowledge of biblical Hebrew will probably need to essentially memorize a torah portion because otherwise you have to guess at the vowels.

SteveK,

By "Hebrew" I meant the Hebrew that is used strictly for liturgical purposes, not the living language which was indeed reconstructed.

Ticker,

YEAH! HISTORICALLY(although eventually less true, and certainly not true today), the WOMAN was the only one that could know the parentage of the child, because SHE was the only one that knew which gametes were introduced. Of course, the child may eventually look like the father, or have a trait that is otherwise very unlikely, so it was ALWAYS kind of stupid and NOW they have genetic tests, and invitro, so they CAN verify the father, and the mother might not be biologically connected!! !! !

But try telling a RABBI that, and it goes against TRADITION! So the WOMAN declares parentage, but the father still must pass inheritance! 8-(

The interesting thing is that the test won't hurt a gentile, and tay sachs isn't really a JEWISH disease, but a HEBREW one! So if you are hebrew through the father, they should still give you the test even if traditionally you aren't considered a "proper" jew.

srriv345,

INTERESTING! Most yiddish I have heard/heard of is based on German and Polish! As I recall, ladino is based primarily on spanish. That HERITAGE, even disregarding content, indicates that hebrew started vanishing BEFORE the second world war, and BEFORE the US was ever involved.

I'm glad YOU had better training. Most of the people I have talked to WERE filthy rich! When they have the bar/bat mitzvahs, some of them are LAVISH, even shutting down amusment parks so that they are the ONLY ones there. Yet they don't send their kids to special schools to learn hebrew, etc...

Steve

I need to do some reading. I was just thinking though what if the Hebrew diseases are on X chromosome then it does make a difference if one is proper Jew or not. If that's the case it might be more benefitual to be improper. Perhaps I will question my Gentile dr whether there is any reason to have the genetic tests considering I can't ask my Jewish dr and not cower in the corner when she laughs at me.

List of Jewish genetic diseases-

http://judaism.about.com/od/health/a/geneticdisorder.htm

Well, you are FEMALE so, EVEN if it was just on the X chromosome, the father would STILL matter!! !! ! The ONLY time the mother would matter is if it was on the X chromosome, and you were MALE, because then the mother wiuld be the only one giving you the problem chromosome. Of course, if the mother DIDN'T have the problem, and the father did, you would only be a carrier. You ALREADY likely know that is your worst case scenario for tay sachs.

If she laughs you out of the office, she is a QUACK! GOOD RIDDANCE to HER!

Steve

I don't think the ancestors of Jews had a high proportion of ASD-genes. But, as somebody correctly stated, Jews, just like Aspies, have been discriminated against for a long time. Since these groups had equally low status in society, it is pretty likely that autistic traits entered the jewish population recently by intermarriage. IOW, Jews have "introgressed" these genes from low-status European groups rich in ASDs. They may then have refined them by their autistic-friendly culture, and thus some groups have ended up with higher IQs.



I'm afraid the previuos blood-group poll here on WP doesn't hold up to closer scrutiny. I added this question to Aspie-quiz, but after 600 answers, there is still no consensus for any of the blood-groups. RH- negative is actually a lot higher in the NT-population. A is slightly higher in the Aspie-population. B is slightly higher in the NT population. However, these differences are small and not yet statistically significant.

The only way Jewish is aspie friendly is the way some might care for some needing help, or help with social things. Frankly, I alway wanted a mother that was LESS nosey, LESS touchy/feely, and LESS embarassing(Telling others about things I did/said, or showing pictures, and some aren't even true. Most are when I was like a baby, and didn't know any better, etc...). Like I said, my mother isn't Jewish, but SHE ACTS LIKE IT!

And YEAH, they did a test HERE for religion also, and jewish WAS pretty low. atheist/agnostic IS pretty high, but to tell you the truth even a lot of people that would PERSONALLY say catholic/christian would probably say atheist/agnostic here. I and my father are in that category. ALSO, we probably thought about it more, and had more negative pressures, so we ar more likely to be neutral at best.



YEAH, I'm AB+ and you probably didn't even get 12 of that blood type. Did you even get 2? Oh well, it is rare anyway. That RH- tie WAS remarkable here though. Frankly, I didn't expect ANY connection anyway.

Steve

There are currently 13 answers for AB+. 10 of these have higher Aspie score than NT score.

However, the main problem is that the differences for the common blood-types are too small to catch with just 600 answers. It is possible I will end up with some small differences with 3000-4000 answers, but these will not be of the same magnitude as in the poll.

For instance, in the case of red hair, the difference is only 2% (about 11% AS, 9% NT), so it would hardly be a diagnostic trait :.)

Oh well, my beard is only redISH anyway.

As for the score, etc... I just took your latest test:

Your Aspie score: 123 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 58 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie

I was noncommittal on some answers as I thought sometimes was more appropriate. But HEY, it says "You are very likely an Aspie"! But HEY, I even looked back when I was 5 and MAN was it obvious! I told my mother about how my head looked big, and she reminded me that I hated wearing t shirts, and she had trouble getting them to fit over my head! So hey, I guess your test has me pegged!

Steve

Most Jewish children learn how to read hebrew in something like Sunday school sometime between kindergarten and 3rd grade. However, for their bar and bat mitzvahs, they don't just need to read the hebrew, they need to sing it. They need to memorize the trope (similar to notes) from their torah portion because only the letters, not the trope, is written in the torah.

This makes me think of an interesting question... can you MAKE an aspie, by raising someone in a particular environment with the right goals and values? Perhaps these traits that are aspie-ish are just a result of the way certain people are raised, rather than the result of AS neural wiring. And is there actually a difference at all, if the wiring ends up the same anyway whether it's because you were born that way or taught that way? Hmm.

BEFORE TWO???? SEMI-RELIABLY???? NOPE!

I can tell you that *I* controlled the early turning points for me. My mother WAS an english teacher and, at least earlier, I think she was fairly intelligent, but *I* asked the questions. If I made a grammatical mistake she would correct me, but that was it. It was even MY idea to learn to read. HECK, she probably didn't like buying all that braunsweiger. I don't even know WHERE I picked that up from. She didn't like all the quarter pounders. If anything, she DISCOURAGED my interests. And it was MY idea to permute some lookups in the dictionary. I even went against her wishes reading late into the night. MAN, those were the days! If only I had some nice math books!

As for my father, my mother said he acted like he did later. I'm shocked they even got married. He might have had me doing math very well at an early age if he was more interested. Oh well, he left about the time I was 2.

I think the most meaningful difference in intelligence of ASPIES is from what I have called a spark here. An early and fervent desire to study/learn. A number here have aluded to that. HECK, look at steelmaiden! She's apparantly always trying to learn another 10 digits to PI! HECK, when I was a kid, I was happy to learn 5 digits! Right now, I only know 10. She'll probably NEVER even need 5, but she just wants to learn it. BTW That SPARK actually IS refered to in the DSM. It is the obsessive interests! I mean you have to start with SOMETHING, and talking/reading are among two of the most common and earliest possibilities. That also accounts for the pedantic speech.

BTW did you see the details on the person that recently broke the records for reciting PI? WHO would even want to ATTEMPT to break the record, unless they could comfortably do it MUCH faster?

I'm sure most wouldn't know ANYTHING without the schools, culture, peer ridicule, etc... That isn't true of ASPIES though.

Steve