Aspergers Without Social Problems??

Post Reply New Topic

That sounds rather tough.
I reiterate my suggestion that you seriously look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for your son, and that you should try to learn the techniques yourself as well.
Negative reinforcement generally only breeds resentment, rebellion, and eventually withdrawl and depression.
The positive reinforcement techniques CBT emphasizes are effective in altering behavior patterns because they encourage and reward rather than discourage and punish.

Also, please consider that your son may know what's right for him and that you may not.
Consider that trying to force him to do things ways he does not want to may be extremely difficult and uncomfortable for him in ways that you don't and can't really understand.
What's so bad about him doing things his way, on his terms?
Is it that his way is intrinsically detrimental?
Or, is it perhaps that you feel that as a parent you should be in control of your son's actions and that he should comply with your wishes rather than his own?

If it's the second one then you should really rethink that, since it basically means you're harming your son out of your own need/desire/wish for control than out of any real concern about what's actually best for him, which he seems to be trying to tell you to no avail.

I had similar issues with my parents growing up.
As it turned out, they were wrong, I was right, I knew what was best for me, not them.
How could they?
They weren't inside my head, I was.

Instead of trying to get your son to do things your way, why not ask him why he wants to do things the ways he does?
If his answers are reasonable and you have no logical rebuttal that refutes them other than 'Do it my way because I told you to,' then you should let him do it his way.

If he really is an aspie, then he's not like you in fundamental ways.
His brain literally works differently from yours.
He's not going to do everything the way you want, and he probably finds it very upsetting when you try to force him to do so, rather than doing things in the manner most comfortable to him.
It seems like you don't understand/realize how difficult/uncomfortable/problematic/aversive even the most simple, normal seeming things can be for an aspie/ASD person, even if there are no obvious outward signs of it, and that you need to understand/realize that we do things our own way to make things less difficult and more comfortable, to be able to function at all.
You need to be willing to make accomodations for that for your son, or it seems clear he'll continue to shut down, and be unable to function.
It should be assumed that if he needs to do something a particular way that he probably has very good reasons for it, even if he hasn't articulated them to you.
Not that he's being deliberately disobediant or difficult, as you seem to be assuming.
So long as it's not intrinsically harmful to him or others, he should be allowed to do so.
The only behaviors which should be targeted by therapy for modification are those which are actually harmful to your son or others.
The rest should simply be accomodated as well as possible, as they are likely not worth the effort it would take to change them, and attempting to force him to change them will, as you have seen, cause more harm than good.

In short, CBT and actually listening to what your son wants and why he wants it, and allowing him the freedom to do things as he sees fit so long as it's not harmful to himself or others are your best options, imho.
Stop trying to control and punish, start trying to accomodate and reward.

I feel very strongly about this, as it seems very similar to situations I've encountered in my own life, and I can empathize quite deeply with what your son must be going through with the manner in which you have been treating him.
It hurts me deeply ( ) to think about the frustration, helplessness, and depression he must be feeling, so I feel like I need to advocate for him to you.

On his behalf I beg you, please seriously consider what I have said.

I would not expose my worst enemy to the abuses of the 'corrections' system, let alone a defenseless aspie child.
That would be cruel beyond measure, imho, and it seems to me like this kid is suffering enough as it is.

*shudder*

I do understand at least part of what you are saying, and I agree that at times we are trying to control. But I will also say that he has been in counseling with a psychiatrist and therapist for 7 months now and that the therapist uses CBT. The Asperger's diagnosis, however, is more recent. But even after the diagnosis, the therapist and psychiatrist both recommended residential mental health treatment. My husband and I visited the facility, and both of us put the brakes on because we came to the realization that the issues we were dealing with weren't mental issues or out-of-control behavior, but Asperger's. But why didn't the psychiatrist (that's an issue for another day....grrr)?

The computer issue we do believe is harmful to him. We have been dealing with it for four years now, lost a year of school already, and are starting with a second year of school due to excessive use. And each year it gets progressively worse, and it does cause harm to himself and others. He almost dropped out of school last year because of excessive use and did drop out this year. And this year after we discovered that he had found his old laptop, we did try to work with him. We let him use it, but he wouldn't give us his administrative password, so we didn't push it (after he threatened suicide this summer, we don't want him to go there again). He was the one who and stayed up every night, which led to him not being able to get up and finally, to quit school. I'm not sure that I know how to "stop controlling him" and we haven't been "punishing" him. We have tried talking with him and know that we can't control him. We've been trying to get help for him, but we are at a loss.

We have talked about letting him use the desktop (not eliminating the computer), but he wants a laptop, unfettered access, the ability to take the computer back to his room (when he does that, he never comes out....no social interaction at all). We allow him to do lots of things in his way and understand that he needs to do things his own way, and I'm assuming that you are not saying that he should be given a free pass to do whatever he wants, but I sense an undertone there, probably from what you experienced as a child (I'm sorry for that).

I do know that he says that he can't help it (he won't use a desktop vs. laptop), but what do you do in life when you can't do things the way that you want?

Thank you, Willard!! ! I came away from the appointment feeling like all the air was let out of my balloon. We have been trying to figure out what was going on with him for the past year, finally got a diagnosis at the beginning of September which makes sense, only to have it blown out of the water by this psychiatrist because of his social functioning. We don't need a diagnosis for a diagnosis sake, but it does affect how you treat him. If he doesn't have Asperger's, then what is this??? How do you explain his rigid behaviors, severe anxiety, perseverated thinking? He is a great kid, funny, soooo smart. And he has a great future--just need somebody to help him figure out how to get his mind unstuck about things that could sink him.

I'll answer your last question first: generally speaking I withdraw and don't do anything at all, or engage in one of my obsessions, if all my options for doing whatever it is the way I need to do it for myself have been exhausted.
Usually, as an adult at least, there are ways to get around that sort of thing because there's usually at least one minimally acceptable option available and I'm pretty persistent about finding it if necessary.

You say you've been 'dealing with' the computer issue for four years now, and by that I can only extrapolate that you mean that you have been attempting to curtail/control/monitor his usage of it for four years and it's gotten worse as your efforts to do so have intensified.
Did it ever occur to you that the more you express your disapproval and try to assert control over a particular behavior of his, the more he obsessively engages in that behavior?
This is a reaction I know quite well myself.
It doesn't even have to be someone else trying to exert that control, it can be internal and the results are just as problematic.
I've learned the hard way, over the years, to allow myself my obessions and their interference with my functionality and productivity in other areas, and to forgive myself for this.
In doing so, by just relaxing and allowing the obsessions to run their course, I am then able to engage in productive activity and be functional at other times.
It has made me a much more productive and functional individual.
You keep fighting it, keep trying to control it, control him, make him conform to your parameters, and you keep digging the hole ever deeper.

Moreover, you and I have different definitions of harm.
You see it as harmful if he has trouble keeping a regular schedule and going to school because he's up all night.
You say it harms him and others, and by others I must assume you mean yourself.
I understand the sentiment, but as those actions don't actually directly hurt him or anyone else, physically, mentally, or emotionally, I don't consider that behavior to be harmful.

Taking his computer away wasn't punishing him? Really?
Dictating where and when he can use it isn't controlling him?

You're trying to herd a cat, and all it's leading to is an onery, defensive, pissed off cat.

I'm not saying you should let him do ANYTHING he wants, but you won't get anywhere if you continue to refuse to allow him to engage in his special interest in the manner he deems necessary.
Do you have any idea how ridiculously frustrating and painful for him that must be?
Do you realize that by causing him that frustration and pain you're essentially sabotaging any chance he might have to benefit from therapy because he's stuck on that one thing and can't get past it because you won't let him?

I'm not saying that missing school is great or anything, but quite frankly it's just not all that essential to living, and sanity and happiness are far, far more important than school.
You're trying to force him to conform to your normal world, to do what a normal kid his age should be doing, and applying judgements to him and his behaviors based on normal standards.
He's NOT normal, though, is he?

Maybe a little explanation of special interests and why we engage in them is in order here.
Aspies focus on our special interests for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being because we enjoy them quite a bit, however there's another reason for them that's way more important.
We withdraw into our interests to escape the overwhelming, confusing, frustrating, painful, and distracting world around us, to soothe and comfort ourselves with hyperfocus on the stimuli and activities we prefer.
We do this to rest and recharge and to wrap ourseleves in an insulating blanket of protective thoughts about our interests, so when we're finally ready to confront the world again, we can stand all the sensory noise, intensity, social confusion, pain, and difficulties without them driving us completely nuts.

I get it, you're frazzled and desperate, at your wit's end and ready to put your head in your hands and cry.
That's exactly how most aspies would feel if you prevented them from engaging in their special interest in the ways and at whatever lengths they need to, especially over an extended period of time.
I'd hazard a guess it's how you've made your son feel these past four years.

If you do just let him do what he wants with the computer, relinquish your control over that entirely, it's likely he'll go on a binge at first.
This is normal, expected, and to some large extent necessary.
It may be weeks or months before he's had his fill and finally starts rejoining the world again.
I would suggest you just let that happen.
Don't criticize, don't harrangue, and don't interrupt.
When he's finally regained his equilibrium enough to emerge, he likely will.

If he wants to graduate from school, he'll work on doing so.
Let him do so at his own pace, don't push him, and forgive him if he misses school or assignments

I really do get it.
You're a parent.
You want certain things for your son and think certain things are good for him and certain things are bad for him and you want to steer him towards your perceived good and away from your perceived bad.
Therefore you act to control his actions in order to achieve these laudable goals.

The problem is, this is about what he wants for himself, what things do good for him and make him happy and what things don't.
It's not about what you want or think is right for him.
I know how hard that is for a parent to accept, but it's the truth.

I understand that much of what I've said seems couterintuitive and that it's very hard for any normal person to accept it because your minds just don't work that way.
So instead of telling you to stop doing things you shouldn't be doing, I'll try to explain what I think you should be doing.
Essentially, you should be directing instead of controlling.

Aspies are like forces of nature, like the tide, or the wind, or lightning.
Forces of nature cannot be successfuly controlled, and indeed even trying to do so in order to solve problems associated with them tends to exacerbate said problems.
They can, however, be redirected.

You can't stop the wind from blowing, but you can redirect it around structures that can't withstand it.
You can't stop lightning from strinking buildings, but you can redirect it to ground when it does so using a lightning rod.
You can't stop the tide, which sends waves up onto the beach and erodes it, but you can redirect much of its energy and reduce the size of the waves that cause erosion by building an artificial reef offshore.

Likewise, you're not going to be able to stop your son from engaging in his special interests or force him to attend school, but you can explain that you would be much more accomodating towards him regarding his interests if he were willing to do both, and then let him decide the manner in which to accomplish that.
Give him the basic parameters, i.e. that you would like him to attend and graduate from a school of some sort, and then let him do the work of figuring out how he can accomplish that and still engage in his special interests to the extent and degree that he wants to.
Of course, offer and provide him any and all assistance he asks for in both figuring it out and accomplishing it, but leave the final choices and actions up to him.
That way, you both get what you want, and you both have to deal with things you'd rather not, i.e. he would have to do school and schoolwork of some sort, and you'd have to deal with him having autonomous control over his potentially excessive computer usage.
The very essence of compromise.
More importantly, though, you'd be directing and assisting him, not controlling and forcing him.
I think you'd be quite surprised and gratified at the positive difference in his attitude, behavior, and actions that will very likely make over the long term.

As I see it, you have two choices, either keeping doing what you've been doing, trying to stop the tide, or change your strategy and start trying to redirect his intense energies and focus without trying to control him.

I said "most of them." You need to find one who has expertise in ASD.

-s what? I see a son that is starting to relate to people again, play with his siblings, go for bike rides, read books. I do realize that he has used the computer to deal with his anxiety, and we just want to "direct" him to different ways to do that that don't sink him. We don't think that he has been deliberately disobedient or difficult--you made that assumption. We aren't angry, we aren't punishing. We (now) know that he is using it to help him deal with the world. We didn't always realize that because we didn't know he had Asperger's until a month ago.



Yes, I am desperate and have cried as I watched him sink into a black hole. He has experienced a huge amount of frustration. So have the rest of us. So have my younger two who have had to take a back seat while everything has revolved around these issues. I am tired to the point of exhaustion, and I watched my husband break down and cry for the first time in our married life. Don't minimize the effect on all of us. He has had frustration, but so have we. And we didn't know what we were dealing with. When we actually got the diagnosis, it was a huge relief--you have no idea. Finally an explanation.

And no, I don't think that it was our control that made him feel at his wit's end. The first two years the computer was actually a safe way for him to have a social network--he wasn't trying to escape our control, he was trying to have friends in a way that he didn't have to deal with them face-to-face. It had nothing to do with us preventing him from going to his obsession.

Last year, it was actually life that led him to feel that way, not us. We moved out of state, and he had to leave all his friends and support structure. We had homeschooled prior to that, and he went to a public charter school for the first time. His dad's job fell through, so his dad didn't come with us, and is still out of state. So he was dealing with the loss of his dad, friends, familiarity of everything that he had grown up with, and the stress of going to school for the first time. No wonder he turned to his obsession, but it wasn't because he was rebelling against our control. I do get it--he had a lot of turmoil. And I don't blame him for trying to help deal with his anxiety. But in trying to deal with his anxiety, he went into a dark place that didn't actually relieve his anxiety, but caused more of it.

This year he had a driver's ed class for 3 hours/night after school and it was his first year in high school. Again, the anxiety took over because he couldn't keep up, so again he turned to the computer to escape. But he was anxious over his performance in school, and staying up late at night led him to have more problems finishing his homework, which led to more anxiety, which led to more computer use........ He finally broke and stopped going to school. He WANTS to go to school and he WANTS to get good grades. In fact, he didn't want to go to more intensive therapy until December because he wanted to go to school. (This was prior to the Asperger's diagnosis and we thought we were dealing with mental illness.)

If he doesn't go to school, he will end up in juvenile detention. It is not a punishment on our part. We don't want that to happen, but we have no control over that--he is 15 and the law requires him to go to school.



But he WASN'T happy. His obsession didn't make him happy--it just helped him deal with his anxiety, but it also caused MORE anxiety, a vicious cycle. Again, we are trying to find ways to help him deal with his anxiety in other ways. And we are trying to direct, rather than control. I'm trying to get him to try some different activities, of his choice. Trying to get find a school that he can get into mid-year that understands that he needs a different way of working. And now that we have an Asperger's diagnosis (only 4 weeks now), we can look at things differently.



Again, that is what we are trying to do. And please let me reiterate--he didn't become more involved in videogames because of our "oppressive" control--he became more involved because of his anxiety, whether it was looking for friendship, or the dramatic changes in life that he experienced, or dealing with his anxiety over not being able to perform the way he wanted.

I told him a couple of weeks ago how proud I was of him--that he has dealt with this his whole life on his own. Nobody understanding him, left to himself to deal with his anxiety and trying to be square peg in a round-holed world. He has done a great job.

Wow, ok, now I see a lot more of the story.

The computer wasn't the issue at all, the massive change of circumstances was the problem.
I don't imagine that I'd cope any better if I were suddenly ripped away from everything that I knew at that age.
In fact, given that information, it sounds like he's coping awfully well, relatively speaking.
Most aspies HATE change, especially large, overwhelming pervasive changes like you described.
As a child I had a huge meltdown when my mom got a new couch and was going to throw out the old one I'd known all my life up until that point.
I was hysterical, inconsolable, over that one relatively small change in my life.
So it makes perfect sense that your son freaked out over the huge changes to his life when you moved.

I apologize for my earlier assumptions.
It's difficult to make an analysis without all the salient information, and you did leave out a rather crucial piece of the puzzle.

Essentially, from what I gather from your latest post, he's getting caught in the kind of vicious cycles that I know have plauged me all my life.
Getting behind on work, then feeling guilty and having that guilt act as a barrier to getting any work done, leading to further withdrawl into special interests to cope, leading to more missed work and so on.
Emotional inertia.

I don't necessarily have a generic solution to that sort of problem, but I can tell you what has worked for me.

It's very simple, and yet very difficult at the same time, but it all comes down to one word: forgiveness.
External forgiveness was/is relatively important and helpful, of course, but not essential.
What was/is essential for me was forgiving myself when I didn't/don't live up to my own hopes/expectations/goals.
It wasn't easy to do at first.
That's a huge understatement.
It was one of the most difficult things I've ever had to come to terms with.
It took years for me to even come to the realization that to move forward I needed to do so, and more time for me to come to terms with it, first on an intellectual level, then on the deeper, more important emotional level.
No one could do it for me.
Simply telling me it wasn't my fault didn't really help since I'd internalized the belief on a very deep level that it was.
It was something I had to come to on my own, as I almost always have to learn things the hard way.

It wasn't until I stopped beating myself up for all the things that are wrong with me and that I fail at or do wrong that I was really able to start moving forward and living my life.
There are still setbacks and problems, and I still end up withdrawing sometimes to cope, but the difference is that now I forgive myself when things like that happen, and just move on, pick myself up, dust myself off, and try again.
I don't dwell on my mistakes as much as I used to, and even when I do I don't beat myself up about them anymore.
I just analyze what happened, see what can be learned from it, forgive myself for the mistakes I've made, and then I'm on to the next thing with confidence that it'll work out eventually.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how you can help your son forgive himself for these things.
Maybe talk to him about it, and point out that this stuff isn't his fault, given the Asperger's diagnosis, so that he can at least understand intellectually that no one blames him for any of it and that it's ok for him to forgive himself for it because everyone else does.
Just an idea, not certain that it will work or help, but it's the best I can come up with.
Wish I had better advice to give you.

It does seem like you're doing all the right things as well as you can under less than ideal circumstances.
Maybe you need to forgive yourself some too.
It certainly seems to me like you deserve it.
None of this seems like it was your fault, in that you had no way of realizing the consequnces of your actions, even if some of those actions led to problems, thus you are not to blame for those consequences.
Moreover, even if you were no one is perfect and circumstances are almost never even close to ideal, so we all deserve to be forgiven when we make mistakes, especially if we're doing our best.

If it helps at all, coming from a stranger, I forgive both of you.

"I've been tryin' to get down to the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think it's about forgiveness" -Don Henley, The Heart Of The Matter

Remember you can be very high functioning but learn behaviors to help you cope in social situations. I had to learn a lot of strategies to be around people and now I can go to parties without making everyone uncomfortable but that certainly doesn't mean I have no social problems. Some people can get very good at hiding it.

No.

Though with saying that, it's hard to tell if someone has the social deficits of AS when they're interacting in a mechanical fashion (doctors) and with family (lots of practice).

If it is AS, be wary of taking his interest away -- the fairest thing you can do as a parent is to just say, if you do your homework and chores, you can then play your computer. You shouldn't dictate past that.