Poor ToM is Inaccurate

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Because they have similar minds. They are not reading each other. They are projecting themselves on to each other and because they often have a similar way of thinking and feeling it works.

When two minds are drastically different you can't possibly know what the other mind is thinking or what the person is feeling, so when you project yourself onto that mind you will be incorrect in your assumptions. You will assume they think as you do, but alas they do not.

This is the same for NT's when trying to interpret an ASD mind..they get it wrong because the two minds are too different and when the NT mind tries to project itself onto the ASD it won't work very well.

It's basically anything but a meeting of the minds so to speak.

Ah, but correlation does not equal causation and a theory, even one with supporting evidence does not equal fact, otherwise it would be a fact and not a theory at all.

The evidence does not 'prove' the theory, it merely supports it...support and prove are not the same thing.

I guess it is just confusing for me to call ToM a theory based on actual facts, because there is no actual scientific equation for awareness, or thinking. no value. none that i have heard of anyways. we just know it exists because it happens. not so much the way we want it to either. however, since you loose 5 grams when you die, it may have weight. we don't really know why either. it just happens that way. to me, things like ToM is more like a belief, than an actual theory. kind of like religion. we know something is there, so people make up this idea, or story that makes sence to them. it's kinda hard for me to wrap my brain around it, so I just think it is another story. it may change as everything evolves, just like religion. sorry in advance for being me.

Hmm...I only think about what others are thinking when they do something "unexpected" (essentially anything that is not logical based upon current information) and I think, “What the heck are they thinking”?

Ordinarily, I assume that they have new information (which I don't have). So, I may seek out that new information. So, I can adjust my world perspective.

the only thing that makes sence to me is not a part of the ToM "logic" that I have ever read. that is this amazing FACT. no matter how antisocial these "ToM" criteria analizers think autistic, or other people are. the fundamental truth is that ANYONE who has complete isolation from the outside world dies from lonelyness, and all those "ToM" maker people know that almost all people generally use 10% of their minds. not 5%, and not 15%. they have all reported that people are intelligent in different ways, and LEARN! Somehow???? some scientist type people say the social, and language factor is what has made our minds evolve soo big. apparently according to them, there are no other factors. like for instance, pounding nails, or eating meat. omg??? I will stop there... and please forgive me for being me... again.

I'm sorry... it's snowing here. don't want to go outside again. i'm reading about ToM again. all I get out of it is blablabla, projection transferrence. blablabla, pretend fairy tail stuff. blablabla, make a belief system, and follow it like everyone else... even if it is not true. that's all I get out of it. once again... im sorry for being me.

^THIS. OMG. THIS.

I have no trouble reading people when they are genuine, honest, positive, open, direct, sincere, and straightforward.

What I have trouble with is when things just don't add up about a person...when actions don't match words, words don't match the face, the tone of voice doesn't match the eyes, etc.

I don't believe NTs can really read each other worth a s**t either. What they "read" is that they have similar ideas about things, and similar patterns of thinking. They make assumptions based on past experience or what they have been told before about things. They don't take the time to find out what is actually going on. They just chaotically operate on a blind set of assumptions, which happens to work most of the time when they all communicate with each other because they tend to use the same group-think, the same herd mentality.

ToM=the other mechanic... hahahaha!! !! !! !

Ill second this!

Off topic but stray thought floating around my head. Not sure how much I agree with it yet but it amuses me so:

One of the reasons NTs are the majority, the 'norm' is because they do most of the breeding. They do most of the breeding because they spend a lot of time being social and making chitty chat, which leads to finding more sexual partners, which leads to more...

Anyway, they are over populating the planet and putting a strain on the environment with all their 'social' and 'group' activities!

They need to stop it. And they need to stop making so many assumptions as well.

The sneakier and fiercer the NT, the harder to read.

The more beautiful and good the NT, the easier to read.

I don't know why you mention correlation not equalling causation when nobody has mentioned either correlation or causation.

You are wrong to suggest that "a theory with more evidence becomes a fact". Gravity will never become a fact. In scientific terms, a "theory" is not "something that might be a fact but we're not sure yet".

In any case, the thrust of Adamantium's post was that "Theory of Mind" is not a theory. It is more like logic or a sense of humour, it is a property that a person possesses. Either you understand that other people have minds that are distinct from yours (good Theory of Mind), or you do not (no Theory of Mind), or you do sometimes...

It's interesting though that with all the controversy about this issue, it's about what the abstract concept of theory of mind is about. Not a lot of people rushing to say people with ASD lack theory of mind, which I think the OP was raising that idea as possibly faulty.

o.k... forgive me for being me again please... causation... there really is not one unless you make it up out of thin air. apparently, it doesnt need to be real or make any sence. correlation... that's not going to happen unless you talk about all that stuff that gets made up, and doesn't have to make any sence. it would probably be helpful if you believe it. that's all a part of theory of mind. wich is a scientific study, that people people probably got paid from donations to create. apparently, it's not a real theory, even though the first word in it says it is. it is actually a joke. somekind of elaborate humor. it is making less sence to me now, thank you for making that even more obvious to me. i wonder if "The other Mechanic" can fix a car??? and again, I'm sorry for being me.

1) Theory of Mind is not mind-reading.
2) The input of the Theory of Mind of a person is the behavior of another person. If the input is bad, the Theory of Mind doesn't work properly.
3) That theory does not explain why some aspies have a good Theory of Mind and still have social deficits.
4) How the Theory of Mind process information is different in every person and is environmentally (culture, experience) conditioned.
5) Theory of mind is not a passive ability.


Edit: completed statement #3.

Last edited by neobluex on 15 Jan 2014, 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

here I go again... there is no abstract concept that I can identify. it is just made up stuff. it starts out with black. just a black void of nothingness. than you imagine some squiggles in it. you don't need to right the black squiggles down, because you can't. there is nothing there to right with, or right on. just a thought of a black void of squiggles. than you talk to people. you tell them all about this squiggle from know where black void never never land. suddenly everyone knows about it, and they all call it... henry. and BAM!! ! theory of mind.... o.k. I get it now. gee that wasn't soo difficult. why didn't someone just say so in the first place. that was easy. everyone must have a theory of mind.

The OP is right about difference in brain/thinking causing autistic-neurotypical communication problems.

Another component of ToM issue is automatically/spontaneously processing what other people are thinking/feeling or processing information in social ways, and that is big part of autistic-neurotypical communication problems too.