Honesty and why people hate it

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same here.

Yes they have learned to require the lying.
I think the reason is that in their perceived reality, conceptual things are taken to be real.
Words and ideas are conceptual.

If you tell an NT "You're great!", then they will actually believe that they are great even though nothing real has changed.
Words and ideas have the power to boost their perceived positions in social hierarchies.

This creates an environment where accurate information is dreaded, and deceptions are craved.

An neutral statement does nothing for them, so it's of no use.
To them everything must serve identity, and frankly reality just doesn't do that.

Could you clarify this a bit more?

I've come across this myself. What intrigues me though is how and why this happens given that sycophancy aka ass-kissing is big in the NT world. Wouldn't someone whose ass is being kissed not know that the other person could be falsely praising them given that they themselves might have done similar ass-kissing before?

^^^^ They like it. It's reflective imaging, and social dominance orientation. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

It would be good to reflect that "they" is just an abstract schema for a diverse set of people. This is a stereotype. I know all kinds of people. However, its had to leave the house and not bump into at least one of "them"

People want you to be honest with them because it makes it easier for them to judge if not also ridicule you. while they do not want to be honest for the same reasons, they do not want to be ridiculed nor judged.

However, your local drug dealer doesn't care one way or the other. He/she just wants your money. Now that we are soo off topic, maybe that is the answer. Maybe the reason it got taken off the wall is because of money. Drug dealers make more money when they do not offend people. Just ask your local bartender.

I think that when conceptual type thoughts share the same space of the brain where intuition works (in most NTs), then the ego, or identity software becomes much more powerful, as in the primary determiner of your perceived reality. Denial is a learned reasoning ability that this identity software uses to protect itself. The software is sort of like a lens that processes all input in terms of what it means to the imagined identity of the individual. In a sense it functions to transform most input into "fuel" for the ego.

If you just say something technically accurate but neutral to an NT, then they often become offended. The identity software must sort this input, and since it doesn't seem to directly support or fuel the ego, then it is often concluded that the input is meant to insult or degrade them somehow. It's the "If you're not with me, then you're against me" dichotomy.

It seems to me that most NTs have so much faith in their own imagined identities that they kind of convince themselves that they are the masters of deception, and that others can't really deceive them with the same efficiency.

Last edited by olympiadis on 16 Jul 2014, 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I think NTs that are doing well are more apt to want to be told the truth and NTs that don't have much of anything going for them want the fantasy that they have a lot going for them.

This reminds me in a Rugrats episode where Susie had an Easy Bake oven and she made these green cookies and she fed them to the babies. They tasted them and they tasted terrible. They were afraid of hurting her feelings so they hide them and tell her they liked them and they were good. It backfires and she decides to make more. I remember thinking all along "just tell her you didn't like them."

I would have said something like, "It's not my kind so I didn't like them but that is just me." Still honesty but still being polite. I have my own taste in things and just because something tastes terrible doesn't mean it's terrible food. Someone else might like it. If lot of people didn't like it, then something is wrong with the food and the person should ask what is terrible about it so they can make it better. Or it can mean lot of people don't like the food you made and it doesn't mean there is something wrong with it. I don't like Mexican food so imagine if the majority in the group didn't like Mexican food but were served it anyway. Yeah lot of the would be saying they didn't like it. Some Mexican food I like. Some people may say the food is too spicy or say it's not enough flavor or say it needs more. Does that mean they didn't like the food? I am not sure. I know most people would interpret that as them not liking it. Even if they did mean that, they were still being honest about the food.

I think NTs would rather sugarcoat things and be nice than tell the truth

Also, telling the truth is different than being offensive. Like if you call a black person the N word that is just offensive. But saying their black is honesty.

However, sometimes being honest is perceived as offensive. However I don't care. Like it is considered offensive to say that someone is fat.

But some people think it's okay to be offensive because they are being "honest." That is the whole point of the post.

Thank you for this, it explains the concepts perfectly in both situations.

It seems to come down to semantics, after all.

In the case of my coworker who might have AS he would take my "white lying" as deception, so that's why it backfired. In my parent's case, they expect deception (or at least talking up), so they praise me for saying nice things (talking them up) even though to me I was honest to them, I wasn't being deceptive.

It's due to the fact that I can't tell how someone is perceiving me. So it's always a surprise how they take me, I'm always analyzing what I said and how they could've taken it with a brain that simply cannot do this task... I feel kinda crazy sometimes though not paranoid, just confused, like I think I know, then, I'm not sure, then something changes, then I know again? I think... and on and on...

What l would do is treat people how they want to be treated. So your co worker doesn't want white lies so you can be totally honest with him but with your parents, you can do a white lie with them because it's what they want.

The dishonesty of psychological manipulation makes me nauseous.