Brain representations of social thoughts predict autism

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btbnnyr
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07 Dec 2014, 12:09 am

The pronoun reversal was initially reported by Kanner in his paper on the original 11 autistic children that he studied. Some autistic children do have this kind of pronoun usage, but most outgrow it by late childhood. I sometimes automatically say or type you when I mean I in communications, which is why I check my emails for pronoun reversals, because reversing you vs. I is super confusing for the reader, while he vs. she is not usually a big deal.

Generally, scientific research in autism involves mostly participants with high-functioning autism with IQ > 70 in children and average or above in adults. This is because researchers wish to study autism without the conflating effects of intellectual disability. Also, many tasks are easily done by HFA, but not LFA. There are some studies with only LFA participants. In each study, the researchers report the demographics of the participants, including age range, IQ range, specific autism spectrum diagnoses, gender, etc.


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07 Dec 2014, 1:05 am

There are at least a couple of hospitals doing this type of research with children in my city right now. It is very hard here to get the proper testing to diagnose ASD in children (testing that the DOE and state will recognize as valid diagnostic tools) without paying at least $4000.00 out of pocket. So, parents wishing that their children be tested (in order to receive services and proper educational support) will often sign up. They screen potential ASD participants by doing an extensive parent phone interview to see if their child seems likely to receive an ASD diagnosis. Then, they do a bunch of tests including an IQ test, ADOS, and at least a few others along with a 4-5 hour parent interview. They pay the participants and supply a full neuro psych report including a diagnosis (if there is one).



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07 Dec 2014, 9:30 am

Fitzi wrote:
There are at least a couple of hospitals doing this type of research with children in my city right now. It is very hard here to get the proper testing to diagnose ASD in children (testing that the DOE and state will recognize as valid diagnostic tools) without paying at least $4000.00 out of pocket. So, parents wishing that their children be tested (in order to receive services and proper educational support) will often sign up. They screen potential ASD participants by doing an extensive parent phone interview to see if their child seems likely to receive an ASD diagnosis. Then, they do a bunch of tests including an IQ test, ADOS, and at least a few others along with a 4-5 hour parent interview. They pay the participants and supply a full neuro psych report including a diagnosis (if there is one).


I wish I could participate in such research. I wish I could get this data. I hope this testing becomes more accessible.



Fitzi
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07 Dec 2014, 9:48 am

Adamantium wrote:
Fitzi wrote:
There are at least a couple of hospitals doing this type of research with children in my city right now. It is very hard here to get the proper testing to diagnose ASD in children (testing that the DOE and state will recognize as valid diagnostic tools) without paying at least $4000.00 out of pocket. So, parents wishing that their children be tested (in order to receive services and proper educational support) will often sign up. They screen potential ASD participants by doing an extensive parent phone interview to see if their child seems likely to receive an ASD diagnosis. Then, they do a bunch of tests including an IQ test, ADOS, and at least a few others along with a 4-5 hour parent interview. They pay the participants and supply a full neuro psych report including a diagnosis (if there is one).


I wish I could participate in such research. I wish I could get this data. I hope this testing becomes more accessible.


I see that you live near NYC, that's where these hospitals are. NYU is one of them, and, I am pretty sure, Albert Einstein College in the Bronx. You can also check Mt. Sinai and Columbia Presbyterian (although it may be called something else like "Presbyterian " or "Cornell" now). These places are all always doing lots of research with ASD.



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07 Dec 2014, 10:37 am

Fitzi wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Fitzi wrote:
There are at least a couple of hospitals doing this type of research with children in my city right now. It is very hard here to get the proper testing to diagnose ASD in children (testing that the DOE and state will recognize as valid diagnostic tools) without paying at least $4000.00 out of pocket. So, parents wishing that their children be tested (in order to receive services and proper educational support) will often sign up. They screen potential ASD participants by doing an extensive parent phone interview to see if their child seems likely to receive an ASD diagnosis. Then, they do a bunch of tests including an IQ test, ADOS, and at least a few others along with a 4-5 hour parent interview. They pay the participants and supply a full neuro psych report including a diagnosis (if there is one).


I wish I could participate in such research. I wish I could get this data. I hope this testing becomes more accessible.


I see that you live near NYC, that's where these hospitals are. NYU is one of them, and, I am pretty sure, Albert Einstein College in the Bronx. You can also check Mt. Sinai and Columbia Presbyterian (although it may be called something else like "Presbyterian " or "Cornell" now). These places are all always doing lots of research with ASD.


I am too old. They want people 46 and younger.



Fitzi
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07 Dec 2014, 10:43 am

Adamantium wrote:
Fitzi wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Fitzi wrote:
There are at least a couple of hospitals doing this type of research with children in my city right now. It is very hard here to get the proper testing to diagnose ASD in children (testing that the DOE and state will recognize as valid diagnostic tools) without paying at least $4000.00 out of pocket. So, parents wishing that their children be tested (in order to receive services and proper educational support) will often sign up. They screen potential ASD participants by doing an extensive parent phone interview to see if their child seems likely to receive an ASD diagnosis. Then, they do a bunch of tests including an IQ test, ADOS, and at least a few others along with a 4-5 hour parent interview. They pay the participants and supply a full neuro psych report including a diagnosis (if there is one).


I wish I could participate in such research. I wish I could get this data. I hope this testing becomes more accessible.


I see that you live near NYC, that's where these hospitals are. NYU is one of them, and, I am pretty sure, Albert Einstein College in the Bronx. You can also check Mt. Sinai and Columbia Presbyterian (although it may be called something else like "Presbyterian " or "Cornell" now). These places are all always doing lots of research with ASD.


I am too old. They want people 46 and younger.


Oh, that's too bad. Keep checking back, though, they change their research criteria every so often.



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07 Dec 2014, 10:48 am

btbnnyr wrote:
Generally, scientific research in autism involves mostly participants with high-functioning autism with IQ > 70 in children and average or above in adults. This is because researchers wish to study autism without the conflating effects of intellectual disability.

I suspect this is also the reason why they exclude people over 46. They want to avoid the conflating effects of geriatric cognitive decline.

If this suspicion is correct, the study parameters will not change to include older people like myself (49) and my desire for this information will go unsatisfied unless I am able to fund the testing myself, something that seems highly unlikely.



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07 Dec 2014, 10:59 am

Adamantium wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
Generally, scientific research in autism involves mostly participants with high-functioning autism with IQ > 70 in children and average or above in adults. This is because researchers wish to study autism without the conflating effects of intellectual disability.

I suspect this is also the reason why they exclude people over 46. They want to avoid the conflating effects of geriatric cognitive decline.

If this suspicion is correct, the study parameters will not change to include older people like myself (49) and my desire for this information will go unsatisfied unless I am able to fund the testing myself, something that seems highly unlikely.


Yes, you're probably right. They also will not take kids with another diagnosis besides ASD (but can be suspected ASD) unless it is one that fits under the umbrella of ASD like Sensory Processing Disorder, pragmatic speech delay, motor delay, etc. I tried to get one of my sons in a Dyslexia study (in order to get a definitive diagnosis without paying over $2000) and he was excluded because he was born slightly premature and had been diagnosed by the DOE with sensory issues. They didn't want any other issues to muddy their research.



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07 Dec 2014, 11:38 am

Quote:
"When asked to think about persuading, hugging or adoring, the neurotypical participants put themselves into the thoughts; they were part of the interaction. For those with autism, the thought was more like considering a dictionary definition or watching a play -- without self-involvement," Just said.

When I pictured persuading and hugging, I thought about doing them myself (awkwardly, of course) with someone else, but it had to be the other one taking the initiative. When I think about adoring, I am not involved.



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07 Dec 2014, 2:07 pm

I am sincere in the concerns I have about the unqualified acceptance of brain imaging claims.

http://newmr.org/blog/most-published-re ... ioannidis/

This professor - who researches research did a meta analysis, working backwards from the studies to determine how many positive findings could plausibly be expected in relation to MRI research on brain imaging.

The answer: even being generous, there were twice as many positive findings reported as could realistically be expected from the amount of data reported on.

There could be a lot of reasons for this. Publication bias toward positive findings is one - and that creates a false impression of the infallibility of this technique in the public mind. Negative papers finding no such effect don't get reported - they aren't "sexy" in media jargon.



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07 Dec 2014, 2:33 pm

B19 wrote:

The Important Issue of Bias: look at this quote:
"When asked to think about persuading, hugging or adoring, the neurotypical participants put themselves into the thoughts; they were part of the interaction. For those with autism, the thought was more like considering a dictionary definition or watching a play -- without self-involvement," Just said."

The words chosen were slanted/biased toward what normcentric populations generally enjoy doing - persuading (manipulating) hugging (hello??) and adoring (fanclubs? celebrity culture?). This wasn't a level playing field at all. None of those topics are particularly likely to turn on autistic subjects, because they are less likely to have any fundamental interest in them. What would the results have been if the words were "avoiding eye contact" "turning down overloud sounds" "refusing hugs" they would have got very different results.


I didn't read the study because I am having focus issues and because my daughter has a friend over and I have to keep an ear open to make sure everything is going ok, but isn't that kind of the point? "none of those topics are particularly likely to turn on autistic subjects..." um...yes...and it showed up on the MRI. I would not find it at all surprising to find confirmatory evidence that autistics process social information differently. It seems kind of like a "no duh" proposition, to put it in my son's words. Are you saying you don't think that is true?

Adamantium, my daughter had issues with pronoun reversals for some time after she learned to speak. She was in the "moderate range" when first diagnosed, but would now be classified as mild or HFA.

(and that is all the further I have gotten in this thread, but I want to come back later as this stuff interests me).


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B19
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07 Dec 2014, 2:46 pm

Effect is not the same thing as cause. Here effect is presented as cause, which is problematic. We are having another discussion on research issues in Random - "The Trouble with Research Shows" is the thread title.



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07 Dec 2014, 2:53 pm

article wrote:
"We've shown not just that the brains of people with autism may be different, or that their activation is different, but that the way social thoughts are formed is different. We have discovered a biological thought-marker for autism."

For the study, Just and his colleagues scanned the brains of 17 adults with high-functioning autism and 17 neurotypical control participants. The participants were asked to think about 16 different social interactions, such as "persuade," "adore" and "hug."

The resulting brain images showed that the control participants' thoughts of social interaction clearly included activation indicating a representation of the "self," manifested in the brain's posterior midline regions. However, the self-related activation was near absent in the autism group. Machine-learning algorithms classified individuals as autistic or non-autistic with 97 percent accuracy based on the fMRI thought-markers.

"When asked to think about persuading, hugging or adoring, the neurotypical participants put themselves into the thoughts; they were part of the interaction. For those with autism, the thought was more like considering a dictionary definition or watching a play -- without self-involvement," Just said.



I wonder how they are asking the subjects to think about those things? I notice that when I deliberately think about any of those actions, whether I imagine myself being a direct participant or not, it has a very abstract feeling for me. It's like thinking about a concept rather than a real experience.

But if I spontaneously imagine myself being with someone I really care for, the feeling is very different. I feel very involved and engaged with it.



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07 Dec 2014, 3:30 pm

B19 wrote:
Effect is not the same thing as cause. Here effect is presented as cause, which is problematic. We are having another discussion on research issues in Random - "The Trouble with Research Shows" is the thread title.


But isn't the point of this merely that there is reliably detectable difference between the two groups? This seems incredibly useful, if it's confirmed in additional studies.



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07 Dec 2014, 3:35 pm

A cough is also a reliable indictor of pneumonia, but there's much more to it than that.



btbnnyr
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07 Dec 2014, 3:39 pm

Asking the same question to two groups and seeing if they differ in what they spontaneously do is the purpose of the task.
If NTs think about themselves hugging their friends or family, while autistics think of hugging in other ways, then those differences might show up as differences in fmri activation patterns.

The point of research is to advance the understanding of a topic a little bit at a time, so any specific result should not be taken as close to the truth until there are multiple lines of evidence from different behavioral tasks, different brain studies, studies using fMRI vs. EEG vs. TMS, that indicate similar conclusions.


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