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B19
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19 Mar 2015, 6:47 pm

The assumption that depression is a solely result of faulty attribution is also dangerous (and in my view, irresponsible). More and more, science is learning that depression can result from purely physical causes - such as hidden inflammation in the body. No amount of "cognitive reprogramming" is going to help that; the person will waste time, effort, money with a CBT therapist and still the inflammation will be smouldering away, unaddressed. There are other physical conditions which typically cause depression too; though it seems that inflammation (which affects the body and the brain as part of the body) is a particularly causative factor.



JonPhoenix
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19 Mar 2015, 6:49 pm

B19 - That was an outstanding reply to the question. You sound like you have a Ph.D. in the social sciences. Could you share your background with us?



kraftiekortie
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19 Mar 2015, 6:50 pm

I agree...depression is not often merely the result of "faulty attribution." It could be present, though.

I'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis. I agree, wholeheartedly, that one should not "invalidate" someone solely based upon what one says on an Internet forum--or any time, really.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 19 Mar 2015, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

B19
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19 Mar 2015, 6:54 pm

How kind of you to say so :)

My background is in psychology, retired now though I am still "B19, scourge of behaviorism in all its forms!! !" (Especially ABA, though that probably goes without saying..) Should put that on my profile really....:)



Boo Radley
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19 Mar 2015, 6:56 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Boo Radley wrote:
It was a "slow magic" but I did see results. I still have moments where I lose it completely (usually when I'm tired, sick, or have a lot of stuff going on). However, I'm definitely better off than I was in my 20's (I could barely leave the house).

Well that's good.
My teacher is hardcore. Physical pain should not even be a barrier to working.



Well, I would personally have to disagree with your teacher on the physical pain and working:) That training program sounds a bit intense.



ASPartOfMe
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19 Mar 2015, 7:01 pm

I took a 6 session CBT in with 3 other Aspies. They use a lot of logical and scientific language to appeal to people on the spectrum but the idea is basically.


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androbot01
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19 Mar 2015, 7:02 pm

Boo Radley wrote:
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My teacher is hardcore. Physical pain should not even be a barrier to working.


Well, I would personally have to disagree with your teacher on the physical pain and working:) That training program sounds a bit intense.


It really is! So far two people have cried and another has dropped out.



kraftiekortie
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19 Mar 2015, 7:04 pm

I wish I was there with you, Ann. I know it would be nice if you knew somebody in the "class."

I hope they send you out on actual interviews soon, instead of piling on the theory. Then you could escape from this apparent indoctrination, and will actually be making tangible progress in meeting your goal.



androbot01
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19 Mar 2015, 7:07 pm

Haha



androbot01
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19 Mar 2015, 7:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wish I was there with you, Ann. I know it would be nice if you knew somebody in the "class."

I hope they send you out on actual interviews soon, instead of piling on the theory. Then you could escape from this apparent indoctrination, and will actually be making tangible progress in meeting your goal.


The other students are nice. I think one of them is on the spectrum as well.



kraftiekortie
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19 Mar 2015, 7:09 pm

I wouldn't quit the program, though.

I would just sit there, listen to the stuff presented, take what I want from it, and get on those interviews.

At least you have "sound-off" partners.



androbot01
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19 Mar 2015, 7:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I wouldn't quit the program, though.

No way. It's not as bad as when I was walking the dogs. Lol
Plus it's the only way I'm going to get a job.



Adamantium
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19 Mar 2015, 9:15 pm

B19 wrote:
Essentially, CBT is aimed at people who make "faulty attributions". I don't think it is a very good fit just because someone is on the spectrum. Faulty attributions is not an intrinsic aspect of Aspergers, though a person with Aspergers can of course be an individual who makes faulty attributions - just as there are NTs who do. What are your "faulty attributions" supposed to be?


Hmmm. It seems to me that people on the spectrum are not more prone to making faulty attributions than others, but not less prone either. A systematic way of dealing with those can be helpful.

I found the book on CBT for Adults with Aspergers by Dr Valerie Gaus very helpful. She does not seem to conform to the image of behaviorists that you describe at all. I am also finding her "Living Well on the Spectrum" quite helpful. I don't get the feeling that she is really wanting to push everyone into a Skinner Box at all.



B19
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19 Mar 2015, 9:51 pm

I'm genuinely pleased to hear that. There are bound to be exceptions. I'll have a look at that book, sounds interesting.



B19
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19 Mar 2015, 10:32 pm

Interesting that her father was on the spectrum..

I kind of like her understanding tone, but her take on anxiety is typically behaviourist - her belief is that the high incidence of anxiety experienced by people with Aspergers is externally determined, and arises from a response to stresses in life arising from having Aspergers. (Fairly circular).

No doubt some of it does arise from stresses in life; plenty of us could attest to that. However there is strong evidence that there is a biological predisposition to anxiety in HFA (different neurotransmitter profiles from birth and thereafter) and that this a core causal factor in the high incidence of anxiety on the spectrum. Gaus doesn't address any reason but the cognitive-behaviourist model, because that is her chosen field. However if she is not acknowledging that innate factor, it does seem a bit of a limitation to me.

However I am still glad you have found it very useful.



Adamantium
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20 Mar 2015, 12:45 am

I'm not sure that's quite right, though I may have misunderstood something.

On pages 53-60 of CBT for Adult Asperger Syndrome, Gaus discusses core cognitive and processing deficits in autistic people. She discusses emotion perception and regulation, alexithymia, sensory-motor processing, dysfunctional processing of information in nonsocial domains, flexibility, planning, and central coherence.

Her conclusion is

Quote:
The core cognitive dysfunction described above causes individuals with AS to engage in a multiude of maladaptive behaviors that lead to negative consequences for them, further compound their problems, and cause emotional distress. When one of these adults presents for psychotherapy, it is rare that he or she seeks help with an isolated core AS problem, as illustrated by the seven cases described in chapter 1. Usually the patient's AS symptoms have become interwoven in a complex web of environmental stressors and comorbid mental health problems, and this web leads the therapist to a broader conceptualization of the individuals presenting problems.


And when discussing more traditional behaviorist models (Beck's cognitive model) she doesn't dismiss the real roots of negative schemas:
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The cognitive model assumes that fellow human beings are a great source of teaching, modeling, and reinforcing the beliefs that comprise schemas. However, social cognition deficits make it much harder for persons with AS to infer and make use of information that comes from other people in a social context. They therefore miss out on a rich source of input for developing and evolving healthy schemas appropriately over time. Their cognitive inflexibility is also a risk facto in that they may hold on too strongly to a schema that is nonfunctional. Their frequent experiences of negative life events, such as social rejection and repeated employment failures, are likely to reinforce negative beliefs about self, others, the world and the future.


While she does see these as contributing to anxiety and depression, she isn't saying the maladaptive schemas are not based in reality. And while she does see all of these as potentially contributing to anxiety and depression, I don't see an argument against any other cause for either. On the contrary, on page 87, she mentions GAD and Major depression as biologically rooted in people with ASDs:

Quote:
Again, the arousal symptoms are difficult to assess in these patients who are so prone to regulation problems. Nevertheless, does the patient's persisitent worries seem to be linked to restlessness, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, irritability, muscle tension, or sleep problems?


Quote:
As described in chapter 2, adults with AS are predisposed to mood disorders from genetic, neurobiological, and psychosocial perspectives. Once the diagnosis of AS or HFA has been established, the therapist should assume high risk for mood symptoms...


It seemed to me when I read it the first time that she both acknowledges that innate factor and tries to work with awareness of it but thinks the tools of CBT can help to deal with maladaptive schemas layered on top of the core AS features.

Certainly, I think about this when I hear my son say. "I suck at life," as he struggles with homework, and I recognize how much he is like me both in his overwrought emotional response and the executive functioning issues that turn simple but boring work into a huge, grinding chore. I don't see the CBT approach helping with the EF stuff, but if they can put the lie to the inner message, "I suck at life," that would be a good thing.