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who here is congenitally illogical?

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who else here totally fails at logical tasks?
I am spock logical and Sherlock holmes detective brain! :star: 31%  31%  [ 9 ]
I guess something intuitively often while bypassing conscious logical operations :bounce: 28%  28%  [ 8 ]
I make a lucky guess now and then. :| 31%  31%  [ 9 ]
I am as dense as lead shielding :scratch: 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 29

auntblabby
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14 Apr 2015, 1:49 pm

Kiriae wrote:
Let us assume that there are five houses of different colors next to each other on the same road. In each house lives a man of a different nationality. Every man has his favorite drink, his favorite brand of cigarettes, and keeps pets of a particular kind.

The Englishman lives in the red house.
The Swede keeps dogs.
The Dane drinks tea.
The green house is just to the left of the white one.
The owner of the green house drinks coffee.
The Pall Mall smoker keeps birds.
The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhills.
The man in the center house drinks milk.
The Norwegian lives in the first house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who keeps cats.
The man who smokes Blue Masters drinks bier.
The man who keeps horses lives next to the Dunhill smoker.
The German smokes Prince.
The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who drinks water.

The question to be answered is: Who keeps fish?


Just theory of mind ones are troublesome.[/quote]so what is the answer?



auntblabby
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14 Apr 2015, 1:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
In the desert there are two Indian tribes. Members of one tribe always tell the truth, members of the other always lie. Members of both tribes look the same. You come to a fork in the road. One way leads to the big city, the other to a dead end in the middle of the desert where you will be stranded and die. An Indian stands at the fork in the road. But you dont know which tribe he is from. You get to ask one question, and one question only, to find out which fork in the road to take. What is the one question you ask? Hint: even after you get the life saving answer from the Indian you still wont know which tribe he is from because both kinds of Indians will give you the same answer!

ok, I am flummoxed as usual, so what is the answer?



auntblabby
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14 Apr 2015, 1:52 pm

Bondkatten wrote:
Auntblabby ,haha I don't get it even with the explanation, all I can think when reading problem like that is "blablabla".
Same as with the questions like two trains going at different speed... I cannot see the full picture; I get stuck on the details and the futility of it all. No I have a headache from trying to understand it :)

:idea: the "blablabla" thing is precisely it, when I see those riddles it is all noise to me. it is somewhat analogous to an undecoded PCM bit stream going on.



naturalplastic
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14 Apr 2015, 2:42 pm

auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
In the desert there are two Indian tribes. Members of one tribe always tell the truth, members of the other always lie. Members of both tribes look the same. You come to a fork in the road. One way leads to the big city, the other to a dead end in the middle of the desert where you will be stranded and die. An Indian stands at the fork in the road. But you dont know which tribe he is from. You get to ask one question, and one question only, to find out which fork in the road to take. What is the one question you ask? Hint: even after you get the life saving answer from the Indian you still wont know which tribe he is from because both kinds of Indians will give you the same answer!

ok, I am flummoxed as usual, so what is the answer?


The answer is:

You ask the Indian "If I were to ask you 'which road do I take to get to the city?' what answer would you give me?"

If he is from the truth telling tribe he will tell you..the truth...about the fact that he will tell you the truth. And he will point to the right road to the city.

If he is from the lying tribe he will... lie...about the fact....that he would lie....and would also correctly point to the road that takes you to the city.

A member of either tribe would point the same way. So your life would be saved, but you still wouldnt know which tribe the guy was from because either way you would get an identical answer.

++++++++

I think its pretty cool. I read it in a magazine once (the old "Omni" magazine). Couldnt figure it out. Forgot about it. But years later when I was eating an apple it drifted into my mind, and the answer came to me in a flash.



auntblabby
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14 Apr 2015, 2:49 pm

^^^
oh. :o thank you for that :) but I have to admit I still don't grok why the lying indian would lie about being truthful but would be truthful about the proper direction. :duh: I guess this is why I'm poor. :|



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14 Apr 2015, 3:06 pm

I love these kinds of puzzles, and I can usually solve them with a little time and thinking. I was able to solve all the riddles posted here with a bit of puzzling. Well, for naturalplastic's one, there was a similar riddle that I already knew the answer too, so I was able to use my prior knowledge to solve this one.



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14 Apr 2015, 3:08 pm

auntblabby wrote:
^^^
oh. :o thank you for that :) but I have to admit I still don't grok why the lying indian would lie about being truthful but would be truthful about the proper direction. :duh: I guess this is why I'm poor. :|


The characters in these puzzles are not real people. They are actually mathmatical constructs (thats the key to solving them).

The point is that you dont ask "which way is the city?" You ask "if someone were to ask you which way is the city-then what answer would you give them ?" because the square of both a positive integer, and the square of a negative interger, is a positive integer. The lying Indian lies...about the fact he would lie...thus revealing the truth (negative one squared equals positive one). While the truth teller would tell the truth about telling the truth (positive one squared also equals positive one).

In real life a member of xenophobic tribe that was out to decieve outsiders would indeed point you the wrong way.

BUT if a member of that tribe were dragged to the local precinct to be interrogated, and David Noth in Law and Order pointedly asked him "which way do you tell folks to go at the fork in the road?" I could imagine a lying tribesman swearing that he tells folks the actual right way to go to save their lives (lying about the fact that he lies).



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14 Apr 2015, 3:18 pm

auntblabby wrote:
Kiriae wrote:
Let us assume that there are five houses of different colors next to each other on the same road. In each house lives a man of a different nationality. Every man has his favorite drink, his favorite brand of cigarettes, and keeps pets of a particular kind.

The Englishman lives in the red house.
The Swede keeps dogs.
The Dane drinks tea.
The green house is just to the left of the white one.
The owner of the green house drinks coffee.
The Pall Mall smoker keeps birds.
The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhills.
The man in the center house drinks milk.
The Norwegian lives in the first house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who keeps cats.
The man who smokes Blue Masters drinks bier.
The man who keeps horses lives next to the Dunhill smoker.
The German smokes Prince.
The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who drinks water.

The question to be answered is: Who keeps fish?

Just theory of mind ones are troublesome.
so what is the answer?

German who drinks Coffee, smokes Prince and lives in the 4th, green house.

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
In the desert there are two Indian tribes. Members of one tribe always tell the truth, members of the other always lie. Members of both tribes look the same. You come to a fork in the road. One way leads to the big city, the other to a dead end in the middle of the desert where you will be stranded and die. An Indian stands at the fork in the road. But you dont know which tribe he is from. You get to ask one question, and one question only, to find out which fork in the road to take. What is the one question you ask? Hint: even after you get the life saving answer from the Indian you still wont know which tribe he is from because both kinds of Indians will give you the same answer!

ok, I am flummoxed as usual, so what is the answer?


The answer is:

You ask the Indian "If I were to ask you 'which road do I take to get to the city?' what answer would you give me?"

If he is from the truth telling tribe he will tell you..the truth...about the fact that he will tell you the truth. And he will point to the right road to the city.

If he is from the lying tribe he will... lie...about the fact....that he would lie....and would also correctly point to the road that takes you to the city.

A member of either tribe would point the same way. So your life would be saved, but you still wouldnt know which tribe the guy was from because either way you would get an identical answer.

++++++++

I think its pretty cool. I read it in a magazine once (the old "Omni" magazine). Couldnt figure it out. Forgot about it. But years later when I was eating an apple it drifted into my mind, and the answer came to me in a flash.


I know a different answer:

"If I asked someone from the other tribe which way leads to the big city were would he point?"

The liar will show me the wrong way because he would know the truth teller would show me the good way.
The truth teller will show me wrong way too because he would know the guy from liars tribe would show me the wrong way.

Then all I have to do is go the other way.

But it was much harder for me to figure out than the "Einstein riddle". It involves theory of mind...



Last edited by Kiriae on 14 Apr 2015, 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

will@rd
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14 Apr 2015, 3:22 pm

I think I get it -

Its in the phrasing of the question. "IF I were to ask you which way, what would you answer?"

Its a hypothetical. You didn't ask Liar 'which way is the city' - you asked what he would tell you if you did - since he's a liar, he would say [DESERT ROUTE] is the way - but he can't say that, because he must lie, so the answer he gives you, even though it is a lie, is the correct one.

He's lying about the lie he would tell you, if you asked a direct question. But you didn't. Doh!


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14 Apr 2015, 3:25 pm

Kiriae wrote:
German who drinks Coffee, smokes Prince and lives in the 4th, green house.

Yay! I got it right.
Kiriae wrote:
I know a different answer:

"If I asked someone from the other tribe which way leads to the big city were would he point?"

The liar will show me the wrong way because he would know the truth teller would show me the good way if I asked him for the good way.
The truth teller will show me wrong way too because he would know the guy from liars tribe would show me the wrong way if I asked him for the good way.

I think there are many different answers, but the important thing is that they all are asking what someone would say was the right path, not what actually is the right path.



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14 Apr 2015, 3:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The characters in these puzzles are not real people. They are actually mathmatical constructs (thats the key to solving them). The point is that you dont ask "which way is the city?" You ask "if someone were to ask you which way is the city-then what answer would you give them ?" because the square of both a positive integer, and the square of a negative interger, is a positive integer. The lying Indian lies...about the fact he would lie...thus revealing the truth (negative one squared equals positive one). While the truth teller would tell the truth about telling the truth (positive one squared also equals positive one). In real life a member of xenophobic tribe that was out to decieve outsiders would indeed point you the wrong way. BUT if a member of that tribe were dragged to the local precinct to be interrogated, and David Noth in Law and Order pointedly asked him "which way do you tell folks to go at the fork in the road?" I could imagine a lying tribesman swearing that he tells folks the actual right way to go to save their lives (lying about the fact that he lies).

THANK YOU for that! finally I get it now :oops: I guess mathematically-minded folk can be expected to make the best detectives.



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14 Apr 2015, 3:48 pm

am I the only one here, who, when faces with all these in's and out's and back and forths and such, gets a spinning head? :compress:



auntblabby
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14 Apr 2015, 3:51 pm

Kiriae wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kiriae wrote:
Let us assume that there are five houses of different colors next to each other on the same road. In each house lives a man of a different nationality. Every man has his favorite drink, his favorite brand of cigarettes, and keeps pets of a particular kind.

The Englishman lives in the red house.
The Swede keeps dogs.
The Dane drinks tea.
The green house is just to the left of the white one.
The owner of the green house drinks coffee.
The Pall Mall smoker keeps birds.
The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhills.
The man in the center house drinks milk.
The Norwegian lives in the first house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who keeps cats.
The man who smokes Blue Masters drinks bier.
The man who keeps horses lives next to the Dunhill smoker.
The German smokes Prince.
The Norwegian lives next to the blue house.
The Blend smoker has a neighbor who drinks water.

The question to be answered is: Who keeps fish?

Just theory of mind ones are troublesome.
so what is the answer?

German who drinks Coffee, smokes Prince and lives in the 4th, green house.

please tell me how you figured this out. :)



naturalplastic
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14 Apr 2015, 3:59 pm

I got it that it was the German who keeps fish (and who lives in the green house, drinks coffee, and smokes prince), but I have him in the fifth house, and not the forth for some reason.



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14 Apr 2015, 4:02 pm

auntblabby wrote:
please tell me how you figured this out. :)

It helps to make a chart of what you know. When you've got the pieces of information you know written down, then you can use deduction to figure out the rest. It does take a lot of thinking.



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14 Apr 2015, 4:04 pm

auntblabby wrote:
am I the only one here, who, when faces with all these in's and out's and back and forths and such, gets a spinning head? :compress:


Except for my own thing about the Indians (which just came in a flash) I have to just map these things out on paper. Just brute force! Make a grid to map what you know, and then use the process of elimination. And even then it makes your head spin.