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Eye Contact Is Stupid People Who Demand It Are Selfish

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nephets
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15 Aug 2018, 1:26 pm

A standard technique for dealing with eye contact issues, which is taught to public speakers is to aim your eyes at a persons forehead, whilst facing them. This also works with groups of people. This will often mollify people sufficiently and give them the attention NT's tend to crave. It looks like you are giving eye contact, when you are not.



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15 Aug 2018, 1:29 pm

JSBACH wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
Oh, grow up. You can continue to fail to get even lawn-mowing jobs, or you can learn the interpersonal skills that lead to success. It's entirely your choice.
This a rather brutal response...
Brutal, yet entirely true.
JSBACH wrote:
I believe that if you're extremely capable, people are more accepting of your quirks! Or at least, that's how I've done it in the past!
I know that if a person fails to learn the interpersonal skills that lead to success, they may never get hired long enough for others to find out what those 'quirks' may be ... if they even get hired at all.

I have passed over candidates who did little at the first interview except stare at the floor and mumble.


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RandomFact
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15 Aug 2018, 1:44 pm

I am sorry, truck1214, that the homeowner surprised you with a sit-down interview when you went to mow his lawn. Was that the first time you and he interacted? It is common for a person to want to meet someone who will be cutting their lawn before the actual mowing begins (although such interviews usually take place while walking around in the yard, not while sitting at a table inside). However, the homeowner could have made his intent clear in advance. If the situation was not your first time cutting his grass, then I agree that it was dishonest for him to invite you over to cut the grass when he intended to lecture you.

I would caution against statements declaring one culture to be better than another for ASD. All cultures have their social rules and conventions to which everyone is expected to adhere. In parts of Asia, for example, there is less eye contact. But people also stand much closer to one another than we do in the West. As a result, there is a lot more physical touch and jockeying. A person with ASD who struggles with eye contact would find the situation better, but a person with ASD who struggles with sensory issues would potentially find it much more difficult.

People tend to be more accepting of unexpected behavior when they understand why it is happening. One way to create this understanding is to explain that you have difficulties with eye contact and that you don’t mean any disrespect if it seems like you are not looking at the person. Alternately, you could try altering the circumstances to create an acceptable reason for having reduced eye contact. For example, you could bring with you a note pad or tablet and tell the person you will be taking notes while they explain what they want done. Nodding your head a lot while writing on the pad or tablet also helps. It would then be perceived as you being attentive even though you are primarily looking at the pad or tablet instead of at the person.

I realize I am suggesting that you do something to accommodate everyone else’s expectations. Is that fair? No. Is it realistic and sound advice for thriving in the real world? Yes.



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15 Aug 2018, 3:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
JSBACH wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
Oh, grow up. You can continue to fail to get even lawn-mowing jobs, or you can learn the interpersonal skills that lead to success. It's entirely your choice.
This a rather brutal response...
Brutal, yet entirely true.
JSBACH wrote:
I believe that if you're extremely capable, people are more accepting of your quirks! Or at least, that's how I've done it in the past!
I know that if a person fails to learn the interpersonal skills that lead to success, they may never get hired long enough for others to find out what those 'quirks' may be ... if they even get hired at all.

I have passed over candidates who did little at the first interview except stare at the floor and mumble.


Out of curiousity, Fnord, given that you are in a position to hire people in some capacity, in a general sense, would you pass over the following person or hire them?

Assume someone meets any educational and experience requirements the position demands. They're qualified. During the interview they are communicative although clearly an introvert. During the interview they say the following:

"I believe I'd be a productive and contributing team member here. One thing, however, call it a quirk, I will rarely make eye contact with you or others. No need for offense. I think better when I'm not looking directly at you when I speak. Also, if you're looking for a chatty person, that's not me. I'm cordial, but I'm here to work and contribute to the success of the company. You could say on the job that I'm "all business". When I leave for the day, I'm done until the next workday. I won't participate in any company golf outings, after hours cocktail mixers or anything like that. Respectfully, I'm not here to make friends and I have zero interest in office politics. I think it's important to be up front with you. I'd like to work here and I appreciate the time you've given me today."

Hire or no hire?



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15 Aug 2018, 5:12 pm

Magna wrote:
Out of curiousity, Fnord, given that you are in a position to hire people in some capacity, in a general sense, would you pass over the following person or hire them? Assume someone meets any educational and experience requirements the position demands. They're qualified. During the interview they are communicative although clearly an introvert. During the interview they say the following: "I believe I'd be a productive and contributing team member here. One thing, however, call it a quirk, I will rarely make eye contact with you or others. No need for offense. I think better when I'm not looking directly at you when I speak. Also, if you're looking for a chatty person, that's not me. I'm cordial, but I'm here to work and contribute to the success of the company. You could say on the job that I'm "all business". When I leave for the day, I'm done until the next workday. I won't participate in any company golf outings, after hours cocktail mixers or anything like that. Respectfully, I'm not here to make friends and I have zero interest in office politics. I think it's important to be up front with you. I'd like to work here and I appreciate the time you've given me today." Hire or no hire?
Who else is available?

The parts that I've put in bold type indicate something more than a mere lack of sociability; they indicate to me that this candidate is likely anti-social and impatient, and that he or she may react with hostility or 'coldness' toward others whose work-ethic includes getting along well with co-workers.

Just as each candidate is different, so is each interview different; and even though I adhere to standard questions and format, there is no guarantee that any one candidate would be hired, even if that candidate looks like the best candidate on paper, because part of the interview process involves determining how well the candidate might blend in and get along with the rest of the team. Thus, being a "team player" who is "not here to make friends" is a contradiction in terms that can only be mitigated by an up-front admission of an ASD, PTSD, or other similar issue.

Again, this is not a hard-and-fast rule, as the outcome depends on how many candidates are available, who looks best on paper, who looks best during the interview, and how badly I need to fill the position.


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truck1214
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15 Aug 2018, 10:04 pm

RandomFact wrote:
I am sorry, truck1214, that the homeowner surprised you with a sit-down interview when you went to mow his lawn. Was that the first time you and he interacted? It is common for a person to want to meet someone who will be cutting their lawn before the actual mowing begins (although such interviews usually take place while walking around in the yard, not while sitting at a table inside). However, the homeowner could have made his intent clear in advance. If the situation was not your first time cutting his grass, then I agree that it was dishonest for him to invite you over to cut the grass when he intended to lecture you.

I would caution against statements declaring one culture to be better than another for ASD. All cultures have their social rules and conventions to which everyone is expected to adhere. In parts of Asia, for example, there is less eye contact. But people also stand much closer to one another than we do in the West. As a result, there is a lot more physical touch and jockeying. A person with ASD who struggles with eye contact would find the situation better, but a person with ASD who struggles with sensory issues would potentially find it much more difficult.

People tend to be more accepting of unexpected behavior when they understand why it is happening. One way to create this understanding is to explain that you have difficulties with eye contact and that you don’t mean any disrespect if it seems like you are not looking at the person. Alternately, you could try altering the circumstances to create an acceptable reason for having reduced eye contact. For example, you could bring with you a note pad or tablet and tell the person you will be taking notes while they explain what they want done. Nodding your head a lot while writing on the pad or tablet also helps. It would then be perceived as you being attentive even though you are primarily looking at the pad or tablet instead of at the person.

I realize I am suggesting that you do something to accommodate everyone else’s expectations. Is that fair? No. Is it realistic and sound advice for thriving in the real world? Yes.


i thought people were supportive of aspies sad, its like a nazi in a synagogue



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15 Aug 2018, 10:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
Magna wrote:
Out of curiousity, Fnord, given that you are in a position to hire people in some capacity, in a general sense, would you pass over the following person or hire them? Assume someone meets any educational and experience requirements the position demands. They're qualified. During the interview they are communicative although clearly an introvert. During the interview they say the following: "I believe I'd be a productive and contributing team member here. One thing, however, call it a quirk, I will rarely make eye contact with you or others. No need for offense. I think better when I'm not looking directly at you when I speak. Also, if you're looking for a chatty person, that's not me. I'm cordial, but I'm here to work and contribute to the success of the company. You could say on the job that I'm "all business". When I leave for the day, I'm done until the next workday. I won't participate in any company golf outings, after hours cocktail mixers or anything like that. Respectfully, I'm not here to make friends and I have zero interest in office politics. I think it's important to be up front with you. I'd like to work here and I appreciate the time you've given me today." Hire or no hire?
Who else is available?

The parts that I've put in bold type indicate something more than a mere lack of sociability; they indicate to me that this candidate is likely anti-social and impatient, and that he or she may react with hostility or 'coldness' toward others whose work-ethic includes getting along well with co-workers.

Just as each candidate is different, so is each interview different; and even though I adhere to standard questions and format, there is no guarantee that any one candidate would be hired, even if that candidate looks like the best candidate on paper, because part of the interview process involves determining how well the candidate might blend in and get along with the rest of the team. Thus, being a "team player" who is "not here to make friends" is a contradiction in terms that can only be mitigated by an up-front admission of an ASD, PTSD, or other similar issue.

Again, this is not a hard-and-fast rule, as the outcome depends on how many candidates are available, who looks best on paper, who looks best during the interview, and how badly I need to fill the position.



I don't quite understand. If they "admit" up front they have ASD in the interview, thereby perhaps explaining the contradiction in terms, they're exempted from your concerns about not being a team player?



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15 Aug 2018, 11:23 pm

I'll let Fnord answer this, but I have to say that as someone who has hired before, I don't like the applicant telling me what job-related functions he will and will not perform. It comes across as insubordinate, and since I'm going to be their boss, it doesn't appeal to me. So I might hire this person if there is no one better and I need the help badly; but otherwise, I'd keep looking.


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15 Aug 2018, 11:41 pm

BeaArthur wrote:
I'll let Fnord answer this, but I have to say that as someone who has hired before, I don't like the applicant telling me what job-related functions he will and will not perform. It comes across as insubordinate, and since I'm going to be their boss, it doesn't appeal to me. So I might hire this person if there is no one better and I need the help badly; but otherwise, I'd keep looking.


It is a fine line, I agree. I also hire and fire and have been in such a position being "the boss" for about fifteen years now. In the theoretical example I gave, I would jump at hiring such a person because 1) They'd be qualified. 2) They would be indicating to me that they were not, in my opinion, anti-social from a workplace perspective because they said they'd be a contributing member to the "team" and that they were cordial (ie not unfriendly or irascible).

It's important to a degree to incorporate "team building", but m'eh, at many jobs it's overemphasized (the functions, etc) and detracts from being productive.

If they'd said the reverse: "I like to hang around and talk to people who are still "on the clock". I admit that I easily get wrapped up in office politics and as such I just can't help but contribute to or orchestrate office drama. I'm far more interested in social interaction and hanging out around the "water cooler" than focusing on work." I would have zero interest in hiring such a person.



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16 Aug 2018, 5:12 am

Love all the armchair psychologists that seem to pop up here.....

Truck, just focus on the forehead or some other facial feature. Just an idea.



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16 Aug 2018, 5:37 am

BeaArthur wrote:
OK, I apologize for saying "grow up."

I recommend those for whom eye contact is difficult should perhaps play staring games with cats.


Cats interpret staring as a threat.



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16 Aug 2018, 8:21 am

Magna wrote:
I don't quite understand. If they "admit" up front they have ASD in the interview, thereby perhaps explaining the contradiction in terms, they're exempted from your concerns about not being a team player?
Because having an ASD or PTSD gives a reason for being non-social that is something other than "I don't wanna, and you can't make me!" It's one thing to be an aspie or a shell-shocked veteran, it's quite another to be an arrogant, self-centered jerk. For the former, I can make allowances and accommodations; for the latter, I can show them the way to the parking lot.


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16 Aug 2018, 8:23 am

HighLlama wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
OK, I apologize for saying "grow up." I recommend those for whom eye contact is difficult should perhaps play staring games with cats.
Cats interpret staring as a threat.
Irrelevant.

When was the last time that you were hired by a cat?


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16 Aug 2018, 11:57 am

BeaArthur wrote:
OK, I apologize for saying "grow up."

I recommend those for whom eye contact is difficult should perhaps play staring games with cats. (or other animals) It might mimic the deep-seated unconscious animalistic confrontation that evidently men get when staring each other in the eye. Eventually you can get quite good at it. Then try it on humans with whom your relationship is secure, finally moving on to situations where you feel less secure.

There are ways to get out of an uncomfortable staring match (unless it is involving a tiger). You could smile and change the subject, ask "Do you agree?", or look off to the side. Looking down is submissive, but looking at something else on the same line as the person's eyes should not convey that. You might also try making lots of eye contact (say, in an interview) but not in one solid block - looking back at the other person, then off to one side, then back, etc.

However, understand that you are never going to change the expectation that the NT majority population has for eye contact during introductions, interviews, etc.


You are oh so right that we Aspies can learn to "fake it," without having the slightest idea what eye contact does or why people seem to demand it.

I remember the first time I realized that some people can't do eye contact, and when I realized that I had trouble with it, too. It was 45 years ago, long before the term "Aspergers" was in anyone's vocabulary, when I was having a social conversation with an attorney who was an acquaintance. Over a number of months, I noticed that he never made eye contact when he was talking. Instead, he looked far to his right. It was disconcerting to me, even, because it was so extreme. As I thought about it, I realized that I had the same problem. I decided to try to learn to do a better job. It took a lot of time, and I'm sure it didn't do much for me, since other social problems remained. I felt a little better about having casual conversations with people. I pretended that I was a newscaster, looking at a camera instead of a person.

I still have no idea what it does for people, except that it's one more thing people won't consider me "weird" for. Unfortunately, there still are 45 more things (or so) about me that still make people think I'm weird. Only now, I agree with them--I am weird--and I don't give as much of a crap about it anymore.