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Pepe
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01 Jul 2020, 12:24 am

LunaticCentruroides wrote:
Weird. I haven't thought about this in a while now. That issue definitely faded away, together with the social anxiety.. It makes me suspecting that it's more related to the social anxiety.

Anyway.. So yes, it is variable.
Some people stare more cause they're trying to read me and that's uncomfortable. (At that point, the sunglasses are a great solution).
I usually don't look people in the eyes when I'm explaining something. I don't care if it's socially accepted or not. It is the way it is.
If I just have to give a performance à la NT, there's no problem keeping up the eye-contact. If it turns out being a longer conversation, it gets more tiring and less important for me or the social norms.
The longer/better I know someone, the easier it gets.


It is a challenge for us to have to consider these things on a conscious basis, rather than an intuitive one.
NTs have it so easy in this regard.



Karamazov
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01 Jul 2020, 3:06 am

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
For me it’s length of time before eyes become “creepy” that is variable.
By “creepy” I mean it feels like I’m staring into a cold dead abyss that threatens to consume my mind.

I wear sunglasses a lot of the time to prevent random people from seeing my eyes: I feel “safer” that way.

People I’ve known all/most of my life (parents, grandmother, siblings) don’t bother me so much: I don’t do eye contact beyond a fleeting skim across and away, but I don’t mind the idea of them seeing my eyes.

I do eye contact with Mrs K, but it starts to feel weird after a few divisions of a minute and I have to look away.

I did take peyote once, almost twenty years ago now, I spent an unmeasured period of time staring into people’s eyes observing all the patterns made by the flecks of colour in their irises.


I wear sunglasses to shut people out, at times.
It is empowering. :heart: :mrgreen:


It is indeed. 8)

I’m so much better at doing the whole “confident tradesman advising/billing customers” with them on. :D
That is... I can actually do it! :lol:


The trouble is, for me,
I grew up thinking it was rude to wear sunglasses when conversing with people.
I have the same feeling about people who use a full-face veil.

When I wear sunglasses these days,
I don't give a cracker what people think.
Once again, empowering. 8)

I am not criticising you for wearing them.
It is a personal thing on my part.


I grew up thinking sunglasses were only acceptable attire over a certain level of light intensity.
I’ve been told wearing them whilst conversing with someone the first time you meet them is rude/embarrassing... whatever :twisted:

Didn’t think you were criticising me :D
Thought we were having a shared fragment of experience moment 8) 8O 8)



Pepe
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01 Jul 2020, 3:13 am

Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
For me it’s length of time before eyes become “creepy” that is variable.
By “creepy” I mean it feels like I’m staring into a cold dead abyss that threatens to consume my mind.

I wear sunglasses a lot of the time to prevent random people from seeing my eyes: I feel “safer” that way.

People I’ve known all/most of my life (parents, grandmother, siblings) don’t bother me so much: I don’t do eye contact beyond a fleeting skim across and away, but I don’t mind the idea of them seeing my eyes.

I do eye contact with Mrs K, but it starts to feel weird after a few divisions of a minute and I have to look away.

I did take peyote once, almost twenty years ago now, I spent an unmeasured period of time staring into people’s eyes observing all the patterns made by the flecks of colour in their irises.


I wear sunglasses to shut people out, at times.
It is empowering. :heart: :mrgreen:


It is indeed. 8)

I’m so much better at doing the whole “confident tradesman advising/billing customers” with them on. :D
That is... I can actually do it! :lol:


The trouble is, for me,
I grew up thinking it was rude to wear sunglasses when conversing with people.
I have the same feeling about people who use a full-face veil.

When I wear sunglasses these days,
I don't give a cracker what people think.
Once again, empowering. 8)

I am not criticising you for wearing them.
It is a personal thing on my part.


I grew up thinking sunglasses were only acceptable attire over a certain level of light intensity.
I’ve been told wearing them whilst conversing with someone the first time you meet them is rude/embarrassing... whatever :twisted:

Didn’t think you were criticising me :D
Thought we were having a shared fragment of experience moment 8) 8O 8)


You have been supportive in the past.
I am sure you will always be supportive of me,
As long as I keep up the payments into your bank account. :mrgreen:



Karamazov
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01 Jul 2020, 3:49 am

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
For me it’s length of time before eyes become “creepy” that is variable.
By “creepy” I mean it feels like I’m staring into a cold dead abyss that threatens to consume my mind.

I wear sunglasses a lot of the time to prevent random people from seeing my eyes: I feel “safer” that way.

People I’ve known all/most of my life (parents, grandmother, siblings) don’t bother me so much: I don’t do eye contact beyond a fleeting skim across and away, but I don’t mind the idea of them seeing my eyes.

I do eye contact with Mrs K, but it starts to feel weird after a few divisions of a minute and I have to look away.

I did take peyote once, almost twenty years ago now, I spent an unmeasured period of time staring into people’s eyes observing all the patterns made by the flecks of colour in their irises.


I wear sunglasses to shut people out, at times.
It is empowering. :heart: :mrgreen:


It is indeed. 8)

I’m so much better at doing the whole “confident tradesman advising/billing customers” with them on. :D
That is... I can actually do it! :lol:


The trouble is, for me,
I grew up thinking it was rude to wear sunglasses when conversing with people.
I have the same feeling about people who use a full-face veil.

When I wear sunglasses these days,
I don't give a cracker what people think.
Once again, empowering. 8)

I am not criticising you for wearing them.
It is a personal thing on my part.


I grew up thinking sunglasses were only acceptable attire over a certain level of light intensity.
I’ve been told wearing them whilst conversing with someone the first time you meet them is rude/embarrassing... whatever :twisted:

Didn’t think you were criticising me :D
Thought we were having a shared fragment of experience moment 8) 8O 8)


You have been supportive in the past.
I am sure you will always be supportive of me,
As long as I keep up the payments into your bank account. :mrgreen:


Just remember I only accept remuneration in C17th Dutch Guilders :

I feel complimented: thank you :)



Juliette
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01 Jul 2020, 9:55 am

It's not so much the face that bothers me, but the eyes, as they radiate your emotions and I find them like "death rays" - very painful and very intrusive. I prefer [as do many others] to look at the mouth.

There once was an article that stated that "people with autism shy away from eye contact because they perceive even the most familiar face as an uncomfortable threat". Others have commented in the past that they tend to track around the edge of the face from ear down around the chin to the other ear. There's a research article on Tony Attwood's site about this. I did learn to make direct eye contact for reasons of social control as a young teacher/nurse. Some do this by standing in front of a mirror and practising as a mechanical, rather than social skill, but the quality of that eye contact is hard and direct. One male teacher said he tended to bore into people's eyes so they backed away/stayed away socially.

We certainly have difficulty reading facial expressions - I have learned to by associating facial expressions with underlying posture and movement - but it's social eye contact with an emotional content that really upsets me. This is why I never demand an autistic child look at my eyes. I do expect them to look at me from the front, but I will accept any gaze from in front of me between the top of my head and my feet, just so long as they are attending ...

The criterion in assessment(DSM-5) allows that eye contact may be different - either totally absent or overly direct/intrusive to others or various degrees in between. Someone I know of who was assessed in his 50s but who has been highly successful in Australia, working with autistic children and young adults, says that his assessor had no problem scoring him on this criterion upon meeting him. Apparently he drilled through the clinician with such an extreme intent that she immediately knew.

Criterion states in part:

(A) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction.
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level.
3. a lack of sponatneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (eg., by a lack of showing, bringing, and pointing out objects of interest to other people).
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity.

So, eye contact can be made or not made. Also eye contact can be learned. Back in the day, parents who thought of their children as shy, would insist that they "look at Mr Jones when they shook his hand", for example. My direct and intense eye contact is one of the ways I learned to protect myself and assert control when I became a teacher/nursery nurse. It can be so unwavering and intrusive{and not restricted by any empathic understanding by some], that NTs tend to perceive me as being very much in control.

I cannot make eye contact at all in settings with people whom I feel safe, i.e. in a social situation, which is different from being in the learned "roles" of professional or teacher. I've learned such roles over the top of my autism, but they are not "me". I am the ASD person underneath the acted role of teacher or professional, etc.

A parent once asked if her daughter was giving "true eye contact", when her daughter's very intense eye contact would make others uncomfortable, and she was not aware of it. I'd suggest that it was impaired eye contact and thus fits the criterion, just as some on the spectrum's direct controlling eye contact makes NT people extremely uncomfortable and thus allows greater control over them and their behaviour-disturbed clients in professional roles.

The direct eye contact is just as "impaired" as is total avoidance of eye contact in safe settings with people whom I trust and with whom I feel safe. In day to day activities outside of work-related situations, I have to make a conscious effort to make eye contact, for instance with people serving in shops, because I know it's expected by them as NTs, but it takes a conscious effort and I really resent having to do it.

ASD children and adults I've worked with display a range of types of eye contact depending on arousal, motivation/interest, etc. Some will look at my forehead or past my face when calm, but stare intensely into my eyes when angry and try to bite me. On the other hand when playing peek-a-boo or chase-me games they will also make strong eye contact. Others seem to make normal eye contact, but other aspects of their presentation meet some of the other criteria in Part A of the above criterion.



LunaticCentruroides
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01 Jul 2020, 11:55 am

Pepe wrote:
LunaticCentruroides wrote:
Weird. I haven't thought about this in a while now. That issue definitely faded away, together with the social anxiety.. It makes me suspecting that it's more related to the social anxiety.

Anyway.. So yes, it is variable.
Some people stare more cause they're trying to read me and that's uncomfortable. (At that point, the sunglasses are a great solution).
I usually don't look people in the eyes when I'm explaining something. I don't care if it's socially accepted or not. It is the way it is.
If I just have to give a performance à la NT, there's no problem keeping up the eye-contact. If it turns out being a longer conversation, it gets more tiring and less important for me or the social norms.
The longer/better I know someone, the easier it gets.


It is a challenge for us to have to consider these things on a conscious basis, rather than an intuitive one.
NTs have it so easy in this regard.



Absolutely. It's not different for me.



livingwithautism
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07 Jul 2020, 10:55 am

I don’t make eye contact with anyone.