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Asparval
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16 Jan 2008, 2:35 am

Wrackspurt wrote:
Well, what is the definition of ret*d? It means delayed, no? It's the word that has been misused that makes it terrible. Autistics are in fact delayed.. at least when compared to neurotypicals. 8)


The word ret*d in a medical context has a strict definition; it means having an IQ of below 70.



DeepBlueLake
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16 Jan 2008, 3:09 am

Considering how much time and energy is wasted trying to get autistic kids to not be autistic, it's not surprising they don't get much opportunity for intellectual development. I wonder how many parents actually shy away from letting their children's intelligence grow, as it's a bit scary and weird.



anbuend
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16 Jan 2008, 3:44 am

Asparval wrote:
The word ret*d in a medical context has a strict definition; it means having an IQ of below 70.


Well, technically, IQ below 70 combined with problems with a certain number of adaptive behaviors and onset before age 18:

Here are the criteria from the DSM:

DSM wrote:
1. Significantly sub-average intellectual functioning: An IQ of approximately 70 or below on an individually administered IQ test. For infants, a clinical judgment for significantly sub-average intellectual functioning.

2. Concurrent deficits or impairments in present adaptive functioning (i.e., the person's effectiveness in meeting the standards expected for his or her age by his or her cultural group) in at least two of the following areas:

Communication is the ability to convey information from one person to another. This involves the individual's ability to understand the message being expressed as well as the ability to express one's self through words or actions.

Self-care and home living are two areas that are closely linked. The individual's ability to navigate through everyday situations involving grooming, feeding, and independent living skills hinge on self-care and home living skills.

Social skills involve the individual's ability to interact with others. This intricate function requires the ability to process figurative language and read unspoken cues such as body language.

Use of community resources involves the ability to navigate through situations by using the means provided by the community. For example, is the individual able to use public transportation successfully?

Self-direction describes independence and requires the individual to complete day-to-day tasks without guidance.

Functional academic skills involve the individual's ability to apply academic skills to everyday situations. Can the individual follow cooking directions or understand labels on food and drug containers?

Work involves the individual's ability to maintain gainful employment. This involves rather complex social and cognitive functioning and skills.

Leisure is an important aspect of the quality of life. Does the individual get involved in relaxing activities?

Health issues revolve around proper diet and exercise as well as regular visits to the doctor. Is the individual able to recognize when he is ill? Is he able to communicate that he is ill? Does he know the appropriate steps to take to seek medical attention?

Safety involves the individual's ability to recognize dangerous situations. Does he know to look both ways before crossing the street? Does he understand that the stove burner may be hot?

3. The onset is before age eighteen years. If the onset is after eighteen years of age, the diagnosis is dementia.

Mild Mental Retardation affects 85 percent of the mentally ret*d population. Their IQ score ranges from 50-75. Many individuals within this group can achieve academic success at about the sixth grade level. They can become self-sufficient and in some cases, live independently with community and social support.

Moderate Mental Retardation affects around 10 percent of the individuals under the classification of mental retardation. This group score between 35 and 55 on IQ tests and has adequate communication skills. Many of these individuals function very well in group homes and in the community. Many are employed and can take care of themselves with minimal supervision.

Severe Mental Retardation describes 3 - 4 percent of the population within this classification. IQ scores range from 20 to 40. Communication skills and self-help skills are very basic and many individuals require supervision and assistance. Many of these individuals reside in group homes with assistance.

Profound Mental Retardation describes a very small portion of the mentally ret*d population, about 1 - 2 percent of those affected. These individuals score under 25 on IQ tests and require around-the-clock care and support. Their communication skills are limited and they require assistance for self-care. People with profound mental retardation usually have neurological disorders as well.


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Danielismyname
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16 Jan 2008, 4:35 am

A question concerning that research paper ("...nature of autistic intelligence"): the children with mental retardation using the standard IQ test, did their "fluid" IQ rise to a level that's similar to the NTs?



Tortuga
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16 Jan 2008, 9:22 am

AspieDave wrote:
79.6% of all statistics are pulled out of somebody's ass....

And yes, when even profound autistics are given a non-verbal test such as the Raven, the vast majority of them test either normal or gifted. The Wechsler which is the one generally used has a HUGE verbal component, both in the test and in the instructions.


I agree. Wechsler is unfair to people who have a reading disability. The verbal portion is so high on that test that it pushed my son's overall score to borderline ret*d. But, nonverbal portion was average or above average. Just because a person can't read well, doesn't mean they are ret*d.



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16 Jan 2008, 10:02 am

A math grad writes: 50% of the population are below average intelligence; and 50% above... That's the (well, one) definition of average...


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16 Jan 2008, 12:17 pm

I'm just reading that 20 years ago it was claimed that 80% people with autism suffered from mild or moderate mental handicap and that now in those countries where early intervention is being introduced, the percentage of mentally handicapped autistics is 20-30% while in my own country it's 60-70%.



oblio
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16 Jan 2008, 12:19 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
A math grad writes: 50% of the population are below average intelligence; and 50% above... That's the (well, one) definition of average...


ok i give in ; this warrants otherwise evadable emoticon usage




:wtg:


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16 Jan 2008, 12:42 pm

Tortuga wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
79.6% of all statistics are pulled out of somebody's ass....

And yes, when even profound autistics are given a non-verbal test such as the Raven, the vast majority of them test either normal or gifted. The Wechsler which is the one generally used has a HUGE verbal component, both in the test and in the instructions.


I agree. Wechsler is unfair to people who have a reading disability. The verbal portion is so high on that test that it pushed my son's overall score to borderline ret*d. But, nonverbal portion was average or above average. Just because a person can't read well, doesn't mean they are ret*d.


Looks like someone's read How to Lie with Statistics


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beentheredonethat
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16 Jan 2008, 3:20 pm

I'm sorry. I'm not usually this blunt. But that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, totally unsupported by statistical evidence.

In point of fact, some of the smartest people in history have been autistic to some degree.

There's also a media perception that autistics are violent (as in serial shooters). There is absolutely no statistical support for that either.

The depth of public stupidity is amazing. Sigh.

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twoshots
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16 Jan 2008, 6:27 pm

anbuend wrote:
The level and nature of autistic intelligence. (The blog is by one of the authors. You can look up the actual study on pubmed.)


Found it!
The results with the Raven test debunk the idea that Kanner's are handicapped in fluid reasoning; they appear to do disproportionately well in it by the looks of things.

Quote:
A question concerning that research paper ("...nature of autistic intelligence"): the children with mental retardation using the standard IQ test, did their "fluid" IQ rise to a level that's similar to the NTs?

I'm not sure what you mean, but the results for the children for the Raven were "at the 56th percentile... indicating an average level of performance".

I would caution that a lot of this "ret*d" business is still a construct. The impairments in performance for the autistic people in the study would still imply difficulty in functioning; on top of that, I'm not sure how the word "autistic" is generally used:
Quote:
From this sample, autistic children who had a known, diagnosable genetic condition or additional neurological condition were excluded

The results would then be skewed in this study away from the general use of the term autistic in proportion to how it correlates with other conditions. All that can be drawn for certain is that autism is not a sufficient condition for impaired fluid reasoning.


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16 Jan 2008, 8:05 pm

97% of clinical researches flunked out of med school.

Seriously, this notion was slam-dunked by the Montreal/Wisconsin group. Autie researcher michelle dawson substituted a visual for a verbal test ...
"
The idea was that the autistic kids' true intelligence might shine through if they could bypass the language deficit. And that's exactly what happened. The difference between their scores on the WISC and the Raven's test was striking: For example, not a single autistic child scored in the 'high intelligence' range of the WISC, yet fully a third did on the Raven's. Similarly, a third of the autistics had WISC scores in the mentally ret*d range, whereas only one in 20 scored that low on the Raven's test. The normal kids had basically the same results on both tests.
"

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78795.php

Other studies have also disproved similar BS, such as aspies have "weak central coherence" and are lost in the details, we lack empathy, we are analytic but never creative, etc yada yada.

This is all a symptom of a very sick NT system of knowledge. Pathology gets money, people major in it, build clinics. Pathology is *interesting* because it begs rescue Ability and talent beg only admiration, which is not a strong NT trait (sorry NT's out there).

So "aspies are dumb" is page 1 news. "Oops, turns out aspies are smart after all" is page 17.

There is actually no - NO - objective metric by which aspies underperform NT's. None. At all. There are a considerable number of them where Aspies outperform :
Aspies do better than NT's on the embedded image test,
Aspies are FIFTY TIMES more likely to win the Mathematical Olympiad in the UK.
Aspies have a higher incidence of perfect pitch.
Aspies make fewer errors in certain tests of memory.
Aspies make fewer erros in analyzing optical illusions.
Aspies can search a sparse visual field faster then NT's.

Measurable. Superior. Page 17. *shrugs



anbuend
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17 Jan 2008, 3:07 am

VMSnith wrote:
Aspies make fewer erros in analyzing optical illusions.


Actually, what Michelle Dawson and their research team found in analyzing all the studies on this was really interesting.

There various studies that looked like either autistic people were susceptible to optical illusions, or we were less susceptible than non-autistic people. This was confusing people.

They looked at the actual things that were said to autistic people during testing.

If autistic children were asked, "Which line looks longer?" (which is how some experiments went) they would given an answer indicating to the same susceptibility to optical illusions that non-autistic children have.

If autistic children were asked, "Which line is longer?" (which is how other experiments went) they would give an answer indicating decreased suscepitbility to optical illusions in autistic people.

So, basically, the theory they got from this was that non-autistic people have higher-order cognition interfering with perception all the time, and that autistic people can have higher-order cognition interfere with perception, but we can also stop having it interfere with perception.


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