Anyone noticed this researcher Arturo Silva yet?

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There are numerous differences between antisocial personality disorder (popularly known as sociopathy or psychopathy) and Asperger's. The one most relevant here is that people on the spectrum are not generally anti-social. They are socially "clueless" (as I sometimes described myself). That is a very important distinction.

Has anyone here actually STUDIED Dahmer's behavior, his childhood, his family history? No?

Like I said before, he does not fit a psychopathic profile. Yes, he was a serial killer. Yes, he was probably even psychotic during the time of his murders.

But his basic personality profile, his developmental history, does not fit a psychopath. It better fits either AS or Schizoid. And his father was pretty AS too. His mother was Bipolar.

Please don't make assumptions before you've even studied him. Yes, psychopathy is very different from Asperger's. But being a serial killer does not automatically make you a psychopath.

Autistics are just as capable of horrendous murders as anyone else (though it's very rare). William Freund, while not a serial killer, is surely enough evidence that we're not always perfectly law-abiding sane individuals. We can be just as f***ed up as the next person.

This researcher is not proposing that Asperger's and Psychopathy are the same thing. He is proposing that Dahmer had Asperger's. Those are two very different hypotheses.

Don't play the 'expert'. It really doesn't suit you.

Ah, I love you Postperson. Always so intentionally blunt and unforgiving.

I was being a pedantic ass and I did get angry. But I actually have information to offer which may be more than just "Asperger's isn't the same as Psychopathy", which seems to be the repetitive theme of this thread.

What I was trying to say was that this thread is missing the point. Silva isn't proposing that Asperger's is the same as psychopathy. He's also not proposing that all or most autistics are psychopaths. He is saying that, specifically, he thinks Dahmer might've been AS. Two very different things.

So at least we could argue about the right thing. Since I don't think Arturo Silva would actually be disagreeing with anything anyone's said in this thread so far.

Postperson wrote:

Now I find that interesting.... one overriding characteristic I've seen about women I consider to be fellow travelers on the Spectrum... they almost always have a track record of bad relationships with controlling and/or abusive men who use them for everything imaginable. A lot of those men do seem to be to be sociopaths, playing with the women like a cat with a mouse. Maybe they can sense an 'easy mark' I don't know.

Postperson wrote:



I don't agree with some parts of that statement. I've known autistics who couldn't lie their way out of a paper bag and others who could tell you the sky is yellow and the sun is blue and have you believing it... The common factor I've noticed is the ones who can lie are the ones who are good actors. They "put on another personality" portray a character, and it's the character saying these things, not them. I don't think that's sociopathic, I think it's acting... If they're doing it constantly for self fulfillment and gratification, now THAT would cross over into sociopathy in my book. I agree that exploiting other is bad, antisocial and potentially sociopathic. I can tell a lie, I have, and I'm sure I will in the future... reading over my previous post I see I worded things quite badly... I didn't view my poker buddies as less than human. They were my friends, and in some cases co-workers. But playing poker is about playing the odds and KEEPING it off your face. Just like you don't look at your opponent's vulnerable queen on a chessboard. If you do, sure as hell they'll realize it's exposed and move it. Is that lying? Not in my book. Being able to tell a lie, whether white as snow or black as space.... doesn't preclude a dx. For the record though, I don't consider Asperger's and "handicapping" me. I have things I have difficulty with. Social situations are hell, oddly enough, unless I "play a part" and get into character. I usually do it by taking on a "jokester" persona, jumping in with funny line, or a pun, or a story. If I go in and try to "be myself".... nobody is interested in talking about things I'm interested in... particle physics, quantum mechanics, genetics, geophysics, the latest John Ringo book... they want to talk about the high school football game. I'd rather the abolish the whole program and use that money to teach kids something of value, like music. Not a popular opinion to have... My point is, being able to play a part, or get into character doesn't make someone a sociopath. Nor does telling a pleasingly plump woman a dress doesn't make her ass look fat. Honestly, it's not the dress doing it, after all...

I am not certain about the "lying" idea. It is not in the DSM criteria, though some authors, like Attwood, mention it.

As a kid, I lied constantly, and I think I was pretty good at it. I did it because so many people were constantly bullying me. Eventually, I made up some fictitious stories which placed me in a positive light, and I used to tell them to people. They were believable stories, and, as far as I know, most people did believe me.

The level of success of my lying skills usually is linked with how much I have to think about a lie. The longer I get to think about it, the more it shows. But if it's really off the cuff, I can get away with it.

oops double post

Last edited by Postperson on 19 Jan 2008, 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well I feel like Forrest Gump here!

so back to Dahmer...what's your evidence for believing his mother was bipolar? it's often the 'mummy' thing for guys - oedipus and all. especially in a gay guy, I'd expect some problems there.

I'll have to drag out my old books, but she did have the diagnosis. She was especially bad off during Dahmer's teenage years (iirc, there might've been some hospital stays too). His father though wasn't home a lot. He usually holed up in his chemistry lab.

Dahmer was kind of the lost older child. When his parents divorced, they only fought for custody of his younger brother. Dahmer was about 17/18 at that time.

Whether Dahmer was AS or not, his home life sucked. He was painfully lonely.

I am certainly not qualified to diagnose anyone, but my own impression was that Dahmer likely had narcissistic personality disorder.

Also, sociopaths are totally egoistic, they don't care one bit about others unless it benefits themselves (sounds like Ayn Rand's soulmate...), Aspies on the other hand have no problem with caring about others, our issues are with communication.

I'm not certain about that, though I wouldn't be surprised if he had some traits. I don't think having such traits is particularly uncommon in ASCs (for the sake of the argument he might've been AS).

The strange thing about Dahmer was he was not actually sadistic. All of his murders occurred because he didn't want the person to leave him. He was desperate to have human company and relationships.

His first murder was out of panic. He was staying alone in his house (his parents abandoned him for a few weeks), and he invited another guy over, a stranger he'd never met before. (I think he was a hitchhiker or something, iirc.) They hung out, then finally when the guy wanted to leave, Dahmer didn't want him to go and panicked and hit him over the head with a barbell. He didn't kill again for many years.

But all his murders were initially experiments where he tried different techniques to keep the person alive. When they didn't work out, reluctantly he killed them. But according to Dahmer, the killing was the worst part and he never enjoyed it. He just found it necessary.

Bundy, Gacy, all those others: they enjoyed the killing and the torturing. That wasn't like Dahmer.

Yes, but that is delusion, not Asperger's.



But how is that an argument for him having Asperger's?