Invalidation

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Welcome to Holland:

Yes, I would have to agree that your husband must be more of an equal partner in the raising of your child--and that not answering the phone because one is anxious about answering the phone is really not a manifestation of being that equal partner--and of being a good dad. It makes it more difficult for you, personally--and it makes it more difficult for your children because of your difficulty.

If I were in that situation, I would find it difficult not to express an opinion that the "action" of not answering phones in an emergency (or near-emergency) situation is invalid. This is something which he must do as a parent, no matter how anxiety-provoking it is.

I know how your husband feels. I hate making phone calls, and I hate answering them, too. I feel tinges of anxiety. But it must be done.

Hmm, tough one. (I also hate answering the phone and often don't, especially when I don't recognize the number that is calling. I have a few tricks that I use to get around it.)

I'm not sure what you could say, except maybe to let him know that he is entitled to his fear. Fear is an emotion, and all emotions are valid. If you feel some way about a situation, it's always ok to feel that way and you are always entitled to your emotions. What you DO with that emotion is what may not be valid. Your husband can FEEL afraid, but he can't AVOID answering because of his fear. Don't make him feel like it is wrong to be afraid, but be clear that it is wrong to neglect to answer. Facing fears is the best way to get over them, but for autistics, this doesn't seem to help. No matter how many phone conversations I have had with strangers, I still hate every single one of them just like it's the first time. He needs to answer even if he's scared because, like in this case, it could be important.

Here are two hints to make answering the phone easier:
1. have Caller ID if you don't already. Institute a policy that your husband ALWAYS has to answer if it is YOU calling. Make him comfortable talking to you on the phone so that he can do it when he has to. I may not answer the phone if my mother or father or a friend calls, but I always answer if my husband calls because he is much more comfortable to talk to.

2. get an answering machine. I can't tell you how much easier this makes the phone for me. I let the machine pick up and, when I'm ready, I listen to the message that is left and deal with whatever it is. It's easier (for me) to call someone back than to pick up when they call because I can be prepared and because I know what the subject of the conversation is going to be. If I don't need to call someone back, I can take care of the issue without talking to anyone directly. Simple, but effective. It bothers me to no end if someone doesn't leave a message. I don't call strangers who don't leave me a message.

The caller ID idea is an excellent one.

Should have thought of that myself!

I think it was very useful for you to post it and I saved the whole link on it, thank you. I'm not sure if you posted the whole link on this thread but yesterday or a few days ago I saw that you put it somewhere. It's really painful when people are invalidating, I think it's an important topic.

Here's what I saved: http://eqi.org/invalid.htm#Introduction

Oh I see now you did post the whole link at the beginning of this thread, there it is again ^^

You can acknowledge he feels unable to answer the phone and perhaps feels unable to go get your child (guessing because often not answering means being afraid what it will mean) without it meaning you must invalidate yourself. It seems to me you feel upset he isn't there for you and your child as you want. That is somewhat invalidating, toward him, yes. But even if he feels you are invalidating him by asking he work toward a solution, it seems to me that you have to choose here and confirming he is right without something in return is invalidating to you. If you accept this without asking for change (even his reading a book on coping with anxiety might show effort) that's fine too....but then you will need to feel very validated by him in other ways.

You didn't ask for a solution, but I am wondering....if he'd known, would he have been willing and able to go get your child? Or bring the car to you and make it easier for you to get your child?

I would never invalidate a Dianthus--under any circumstances.

There's a couple growing up in some pots right now. They don't believe in being invalidated, either.

They sent me a stinging reminder that I must not invalidate them.

I responded with a smile and a wink.

My wife taught them well, I must say.

I just love how I keep finding new things that are so true about myself. It's like someone is watching me.

Bringing up the subject of other cultures, I hadn't given much thought about that, but that's true. Some groups I've been with have a completely different attitude than another group, and where one might use insults and poke fun at people as a way to relieve tension, the other is the opposite, being quiet, calm and caring. Sometimes it takes me a while to get a feel for the group's dynamic, and it's especially hard when a group has such a diverse mix... that tends to not go well.

I think that you can be invalidated even if you don't accept it. It just has much less effect. If it's online, other people can see it, though, and it stands that someone is trying to invalidate you. Their intent might be clear (bad intent) and other people would recognize it as invalidating even if you just shrug it off because you know the person's a jerk.
If you get a group of people who don't think your opinion is valid, it doesn't matter how much you shrug it off, they will not allow you be validated, leaving the only course of action as to leave them.

Have you ever told him that? Maybe you could set some time aside to talk about this, when you are both calm. Tell him you want to talk about what is going on and try to find some solutions. Tell him that you want him to listen and understand what you are going through. You could ask him to hear you out first before he responds, and let him know that he will have a turn to speak also but you would just like to get some things out in the open first.

Tell him how you really feel, and how those situations affecting you, and for the moment just make it all about you. Don't attack or criticize what he does, refer to his actions in a neutral way, and talk about what you have been experiencing in relation to those actions.

Don't skip over anything just because it seems obvious to you...he may really need to hear this to be able to your point of view. Be sure to describe in detail what you have to do in those situations on a practical level, like how much it disrupts your routine, how it affects your job if you have to leave early, and so forth.

If he gets emotional and jumps in while you are speaking, just allow it to happen. Allow him to say what he needs to say. Then ask calmly if he can put that aside for the moment and finish hearing you out. Promise that you will come back to his comments and explore them further. You might need to take a time out, or just put the conversation aside and come back to it later.

When he speaks, let him to talk about how he feels and what he experiences also - even if you have heard it all before - try to listen with fresh ears as if this is the first time.




I don't think so either...most any rational human being would probably agree with you. He needs to answer the phone. But if he has that much anxiety, it's clearly not something to be reasoned with.

I don't know about you, but I think the temptation for me, and for a lot of people, would be to view his anxiety as "the enemy" and try to eradicate it with reasoning. That's something I have found does. not. work. Ever. lol

One thing to remember is, the more strongly emotional a person is about something, the harder it is for them to empathize with others- especially when it comes to fear and anxiety. It's like a survival mechanism kicks in that makes the person concentrate totally on themselves.

When you say that your default is to just not talk about it, that is really worrying to me. I think you need to have a time and space where you can be listened to and understood. When you can establish that, you may begin to feel differently about things. Your approach might change, and then your conversations might start going differently about these things.

Don't expect to find a solution on the first attempt. This may take some time. I would make it clear that this problem is affecting you both - aka "We're in this together" - and you want to work together to find a solution.

The practical ideas about caller ID and an answering machine are good. However he probably also needs to find some strategies for dealing with anxiety about these things. You can be supportive, but ultimately this may not be something you can help him with.

Why exactly is he afraid to answer the phone?

I think caller ID is a good idea or an answering machine. I also think you should talk to him about how it makes you feel and why he needs to answer the phone when the kids are in school because it could be the school calling and what if there was some emergency?

I agree that context is important. Sometimes a person is genuinely trying to be helpful.

However, just because a person wants to help, and is trying to help, doesn't mean that those actions are actually helpful. It's possible for people to unknowingly do harmful things when they are trying to help.

Intentions don't negate impact...for instance if you accidentally drop a hammer on someone's foot, you didn't intend to do so, but the damage is still done.

The purpose here is to look at these communication styles and understand how they are discounting. Depending on the context, the damage done may be very small, or it could be much bigger.




I wholeheartedly disagree.

I think people may believe some of these statements and behaviors are helpful, because they want others to make them feel better. They don't want to feel emotions that are unpleasant or uncomfortable. People just want to feel better quickly. This is totally normal and happens to everyone.

In the long run it can be harmful though, because emotions can fester if they are not addressed. Over time the scenario may repeat with more emotional intensity. The emotions are trying to give a message, but the message isn't being heard, so it gets louder and more insistent. It may eventually convert into a physical illness.

The urge to "feel better" and escape emotions can also lead to chemical dependency and other forms of addiction.

A person who is accustomed to being made to feel better, or being told to stop expressing their feelings, may actually begin to rely on it. They may find themselves becoming more and more emotionally dependent on others. Their inner self-talk may match what they are being told. They may be unable to handle their own emotions, and unable to soothe themselves or validate their own emotions.

The person who says once or twice, "cheer up it's not so bad" or "you don't have any reason to feel that way" may have the best of intentions. But so what?

So within the response to the invalidating statement, should a person make a distinction between trying to help and the intent to hurt? Or is it, as it would be legally, the effect, and not the intent determines the response?

Thanks...I wasn't sure if people noticed the link or read the whole page.

Here are some more pages on the site:


Pre-Emptive Invalidation
http://core.eqi.org/pre_emptive_invalidation.htm

Is Invalidation Necessary Sometimes?
http://eqi.org/invalid15.htm

Respect
http://core.eqi.org//respect.htm

Empathy
http://core.eqi.org//empathy.htm

Understanding
http://core.eqi.org//und1.htm

Listening
http://core.eqi.org//listen.htm

Caring
http://core.eqi.org//caring.htm

Nevertheless, I have felt invalidated by some of the comments you have made in this thread, and at other times on the forum. I realize that I may also have said things that are invalidating to you. I think our perspectives and our approaches to things are often times so different, it is hard for me to find common ground with you.

I think some of the statements can be helpful in the context of a positive relationship and as suggestions not commands. When provided with plenty of empathy.

This thread makes me sad as I feel we are invalidating one another and want us to look for what we have in common. However, I come at this from the perspective that the ultimate invalidation is to turn me into an object, a thing, and show and tell me I offer nothing of any value to this world, people should be protected from my existence. Therefore I am both able to, at times, feel patient that more minor invalidation can be worked with, as well as easily overwhelmed by any hint others are invalidating me.

I wonder how many others, even if not with those words, have experienced that betrayal of their existence as human beings and whether those who have, like me, struggle with even small invalidations in day to day life such as are listed in the OP.

I re read the list, and Ive heard each of those statements in the intended invalidation manner, and less of them in the 'trying to help' manner.
Some statements annoy me more than others, like the the facial expression comments... In my life the pièce de résistance of these type of statements was "you have a face on you like a slapped ar$e, would you at least pretend to be enjoying yourself"