Are people with autism borderline sociopaths?

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NO, what? no!
Of course it was the autism part I had some distrust about.
Ah anyway. The rest of your post, I can understand it. Yeah, it's possible to be a Narc without being a malignant Narc. This part had skipped my mind for some reason, , and I've never met a "non malignant Narc" so I can't argue about those.
I'm a tolerant person, not tolerant to predators in general, but that does not make me intolerant does it?

No it makes you sensibly weary and suspicious, which is why I said I could understand why some folk were suggesting sociopath pretending to be Aspie. I get that it can happen, and I get that you need to be on guard.
I get the antagonism to Narcs and Psychopaths.
I get the rage if someone were doing that too, and the likelihood that it happens. Nasty f*****s. I get the sensitivity to the sociopath = Aspie button, and annoyance when someone presses it.

However, when I gave up arguing that you couldn't be Aspie+NPD and I thought about it for a moment, it is possible and I felt reassured it was benign Narc emotions due to the Aspie brain.

Like I have said I'm interested in concilliation, not arguing. I pathologically hate it when people misunderstand each other. Perhaps I need a diagnosis? Too much red wine would be my best bet.

I don't think NPD and autism are mutually exclusive. I am fairly certain that HPD and autism probably are. I found some research to this effect awhile back, although the last time I quoted it both my intent and the research itself were badly misinterpreted.

I don't see why any personality disorder couldn't be comorbid with autism. Sociopathy is trickier because it has its own brain strangeness, though like I said I've encountered four or five autistics who appeared sociopathic.

Autistic people and people with ADHD both tend toward higher frequency of personality disorders than NTs. Which personality disorders tend to be biased by diagnosis - autism with or without ADHD tends toward cluster A and cluster C, while people who just have ADHD tend toward cluster B, per this research paper I came across.

In that study, no one on the autistic spectrum - with or without ADHD - fit the criteria for histrionic personality disorder. I think that no one diagnosed with just autism fit the criteria for ASPD. NPD and BPD were much lower than paranoid, schizoid, etc. This is the study, but it seems like most of the charts have been taken down:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... rnalID=13#

Having read about various PDs in-depth, I find it very difficult to imagine how someone could be autistic and HPD at the same time. While many people say that NPD or BPD or whatever sound like the complete opposite of being autistic, in HPD the contrast is fairly significant. One thing that stands out rather starkly is that people with HPD tend to think in terms of generalizations and not details, and tend to be more about emotional impressions than facts. This is an extremely brief summary and can't even begin to describe all possible contrasts, and thus should serve as an example and nothing more.

I do think the study showed that there's not particularly a strong connection between narcissism or ASPD and autistic conditions, however. That doesn't mean they can't coexist, but that doesn't mean that they're particularly related either.

Interesing. I think I've known Histrionic people. They were very annoying. I have aesthetic (what most would call 'moral') problems with labelling people but it can be useful predictively, so I like to make observations.

There seems to be a lack of support for people with narcissism. I see only support for victims. So here, have at thee.

http://personalitydisorders.freeforums.org/

I'm autistic and I seem to have cognitive empathy. I have a fairly intuitive intellect though so that may be why. I may lack social sponteneity and I can't easily "act" the way NTs seem to with ease, i.e. I can't easily project the personality and body language that I want people to percieve. However I can analyze rather accurately how people think. I can see cognitive biases and other things going on that people in general don't seem to acknowledge. I can kind of understand why people have the urge to beleive in conspiracy theories even though they seem illogical to me. I also notice all the time when people are using psychological defense mechanisms like splitting. When I witness two people arguing I can almost predict what they are going to say.

As far as emotional empathy goes, I seem to have adverse negative emotional empathy than positive emotional empathy. It upsets me greatly to see people suffering and injustice drives me nuts. I feel protective towards anyone I see as vulnerable. However, I don't seem to get the sentimental "warm fuzzies" from social occasions. If I see friends embracing and hugging it's awkward for me because I'm not really feeling it. I also don't really get sentimental but useless gifts.

As for lying, when I do I don't ever get caught. I suppose that's because I'm honest 99.99% of the time. A notice a lot of NTs tell obvious fibs and don't seem concerned enough over getting caught. I know I'd be extremely ashamed and emberessed if I ever got caught in a lie. It makes me cringe when NTs pull the "I don't recall" obvious BS. Therefore if I do lie I make sure it's beleivable, air tight, and keep my story consistent. In most cases though, honesty is much less painful. People tend to assume I'm incapable of lying though.

This is largely because people diagnosed with personality disorders - especially cluster b disorders - are basically treated as if they made a conscious choice at some point to be like that. It doesn't help when you have highly charged writings like Baron-Cohen's book on linking evil to psychiatric diagnoses.

I do think it's important to know how to protect one's self against predatory behaviors, and cluster B disorders tend to be full of them, but it's also important to keep in mind that they are human beings, too.

I guess I tend to think that many narcissists are considered the "winners" in society. They don't have real problems in life other than the fact that a lot of people think they are grandiose a**holes. Mild sociopaths also don't necessarily have any problems in life other than the fact that they lack a conscience. I'd bet many CEO's are mild sociopaths. Not necessarily entrepreneurs mind you but the ones who rise to the top primarily for the power and status.

BPD on the other hand is an actual mental disorder. It's never benign or beneficial, no matter how mild. In fact, it carries a higher suicide risk than any other mental disorder. It really shouldn't even be classified as a personality disorder IMO. It's more of an emotional disorder. It seems it gets lumped in with personality disorders because it isn't easy to treat with drugs. All the negative behaviors are in reality dysfunctional coping mechanisms.

I'm probably going to marry a bpd (undiagnosed, ultra high functioning). They're the only girls who can read me. Difference between a bpd and a psychopath is one is completely insane, the other just uses defence mechanisms. A cynic might say you cure one with love, the other with a bullet.

I heard on a documentary that NPD is underdiagnosed because most of them will not go for treatment. They don't think they have a problem so they aren't going to in and seek therapy to see why they are having these issues so therefore a diagnoses isn't going to be made. I guess that has to do with them thinking they can do no wrong and they have too much of a high ego and are very arrogant. I bet lot of them don't even think they have it, either that or they are just in denial.

Well: My (half) sister and my (legal, not biological) father both have pretty strong NPD-type traits, as in if you read a list of red flags, a lot of their behavior is on that list, and they're actually not "winners" at all. My sister stays above water despite her ADHD and other problems because she's always had support - right now, her husband provides a lot of support for her and she provides him with support on things he's not good at. I doubt either would ever admit they're disabled, but they both make up for each other's strengths and weaknesses almost out of habit now.

My father is abusive and probably has a personality disorder, possibly NPD, possibly BPD with NPD traits or vice versa. He's basically a horrible person and this has limited his ability to make much leeway in life. Not a winner at all.

Earlier in the thread I talked about what the majority of sociopaths are like, and the fact that so many end up in prison or are outright limited by their own social deficits. Successful people with these disorders are few and far between, IMO.



I'll take this one step further: The category of "personality disorder" as separate and distinct from other mental disorders is a false and meaningless distinction that serves only to label some patients as incurable and not worthy of help. The model of "personality disorders" as something that is wrong with personality development is an old, Freudian bias that really could use serious reexamination and research to better refine our understanding of what these conditions actually are - whatever that may be - and stop ostracizing people out of help they may need. I realize a lot of people with these conditions don't even believe there's anything wrong with their behavior or that it needs treatment, but I doubt there's been much work on how to get people to accept this. As far as it goes, I have seen people diagnosed with NPD, HPD, and BPD all express distress at their symptoms.

Also, there are medications that help with BPD - I know of one psychiatrist who described how he medicates his BPD patients, and says it has a fairly high rate of success. Also, there's dialectic behavioral therapy, a form of cognitive behavioral therapy that is used with some success with people who have BPD.

Also, there's certainly a lot that is misunderstood about BPD itself.

BPD is interesting as a spectrum. It's like autism in that it includes people I consider brilliantly sane and complete nutjobs, and the only difference seems to be basic level of intelligence.

If you've seen this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/exp ... s-syndrome ...you'll know that nobody knows how it works. I had one particular idea, related to being able to see the real world rather than projecting onto it from the gameworld inhabited by the majority of NTs, thus 'Theory of Mind' would be nothing more than a particular value system, and I tested that to some extent with bpds: http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/534679/results - not science but interesting results nonetheless.

I totally agree that individuals and this online community should be wary and keep antennae out for people who are trying to pretend to be autistic, for whatever reason. I want people to be safe.

But the above point is important, no-one makes a conscious choice to have NPD. (As far as I understand it, NPD is a coping mechanism, thought to be in reaction to childhood trauma - but I'm not that well informed)

Another important point to all the people who are reacting against the idea that you can have autism+NPD is this: We are talking about comorbid with autism, so please ask the question "If possible what would that mean?" "If possible what does it look like?"

Stop focussing on the 'nasty' NPD part and ask about the combination. The two moderate each other, so you mustn't judge it as, or even expect it to look like NPD.

I couldn't move beyond NPD = Nasty, until I combined it with autism.

Apparently it places you at the "Jesus end of the spectrum, instead of the Charles Manson end" (yeah grandiose or what?). You become a nice, benign Narc! There is research on this, it is known of, just uncommon combination.

Fraac's role model is Jesus. His narcissism involves hugging people and believing he is God.

NT + NPD alone is horribly destructive. Its self-hate, not self-love. They destroy their victims lives. But perhaps, NPD can mix with autism and it may therefore be benign, victims get hugged and an autistic compares himself to Jesus, thinks he is very much like Jesus, and values all of Jesus's teachings. Sounds fairly benign to me?

Again, thats pretty much me. As an adult I can't sustain a lie, I'm 99% honest (less than you). I won't do it unless theres a really good and positive outcome. As a kid I was a natural liar. My sweet face looked like butter wouldn't melt. All it meant to me was that I was free to roam the countryside or stay out all night whilst my parents believed I was at a friends house. Lying gave me freedom. I have rarely been unkind in my life. I value profound kindness above all else. Just because you have the ability to lie does not make you a bad person. Just because you have the ability to manipulate people, does not mean you use it with malice.

Last edited by pastafarian on 23 Nov 2011, 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.