Persona
11 Feb 2012, 5:57 pm
kBillingsley wrote:
Many of us (that is to say, high-functioning developmentally disordered individuals) eventually learn behaviors that are "acceptable" to the general populace. Whether or not we agree to them or appreciate their basis, we will almost invariably follow them so as not to catch ridicule from others. With all of these corrections to our own natural states, can it be said that the person we are in public is the same as the person we are internally? I consider the individual that an autistic presents his or herself as, as a separate character or "persona" that the high-functioning autistic produces and acts out whenever necessary. Some of us enjoy our lifelong occupation of the thespian, while others dread the prospect of waking every morning to don a mask of normalcy. Regardless of opinion on the subject, I wondered if anyone else out there has created a sort of avatar with which to interact with the outside world. I have. I come off as polite, caring, joking, and try to give a general appeal of good will to all whom I encounter. I smile when told a joke, ask others their troubles when they appear disgruntled, and always establish eye contact when shaking the hand of a superior. I am, in my opinion, the consummate "normal" person. It is all a lie. I do not enjoy or understand the basis of eye contact or hand-shaking. I do not care about the petty troubles of others (unless they are life or livelihood threatening). I do enjoy a good laugh, but some of the jokes that I "laugh" are just terrible. Socializing outside of school is agonizing to me. These and many other characteristics that one may imply from my spurious, normal demeanor are all false. So, wrongplanet users, how fake are you?
I get what you're saying, but disagree to a certain extent. I do "fake" some things, but that's just a choice of words to describe the adapting I've learned. I don't do this to avoid ridicule though. I really don't give much of a hoot what ridiculers think. I do it because it makes my life easier and run more smoothly.
Also, what I do in public isn't really faking if you really think about it. It's as real as everyone else around me. It's just that many public behaviors I display don't come naturally to me. But that doesn't mean they're really fake. I've been doing them for so long they've become a part of who I really am just as much as my "private" behaviors.
I do act differently around people who know me well, but who doesn't? I mean, really, who doesn't do that? That's not an exclusively Aspie trait. It's just more extreme with us than with non Autistics.
It is tiring to keep up the public behaviors, but even that isn't exclusive to Aspies. Everyone does. It's just a lot MORE tiring for us. We need a lot more breaks and recouping time than others.
But it is, all me. Nothing fake about it at all.
_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...
12 Feb 2012, 12:45 am
unduki wrote:
anthonyj37 wrote:
New member here. I've been thinking about this topic for quite some time now, and your post caught my eye. I am a NT who has suffered with social anxiety disorder/self-esteem issues for at least half my life (I'm 37 now). When I was younger, I was very shy and timid. I didn't make friends easily, and I generally did my best to avoid the limelight. As I've gotten older, I have become somewhat more outgoing and sociable, but I have developed this inner turmoil with myself in regards to how I "act" in public.
Basically, because of my past history with shyness and my struggles with social anxiety disorder, I have a very fine-tuned sense of the social world and how it works. And as I've gotten older, I have developed a very sour taste towards socializing in general. The reason being that fakery and deception are a large part of normal social interaction. Just like you said in your initial post, I go through the motions and wear the appropriate faces in various social situations; I laugh when I'm supposed to laugh, I inquire when I am supposed to inquire, and I generally do all the "normal" things we as humans are supposed to do in social situations. But doing all of that makes me feel so fake and deceitful.
Rarely does my public persona match my internal feelings and emotions. Socializing for me is hard work; it's depleting and tiring to have to flip the social switch and partake in the social world. I often think that if people knew my true thoughts and feelings, nobody would like me or want to be my friend. So, therein lies the problem: how do I become "ok" with being phony and deceitful? Truthfully, I want to be liked, I want to have more friends, and I do crave a vibrant social life. But I detest the paths that I have to take to get those things. I've always hated phony people. Two-faced, superficial, deceitful people have always bothered me. But then I realize I am just as two-faced and phony in social situations as are the people that I detest.
This is something that keeps me awake at night. If I weren't such a sensitive, introspective, and caring individual, I probably wouldn't think twice about all this stuff. But I've always been a sensitive guy. I've always noticed things in situations that other less aware people miss. I notice the subtle changes in behavior when people are around different people or in different social situations. I've always viewed those changes as mini performances designed to accomplish some hidden agenda or goal. But then I notice the same things in myself -- and I hate myself for it! Uggggh! This is a big problem for me. At 37, I'm still trying to make up for all the life I missed out on when I was in the depths of my social anxiety struggle. To make a long story shorter, I basically put my life on hold for 15 or so years. So, naturally, I have a lot of work to do, and improving my social life is high on my list of must-dos. But it's hard for me to do it when I feel like such a phony. Sorry this was so long.
Basically, because of my past history with shyness and my struggles with social anxiety disorder, I have a very fine-tuned sense of the social world and how it works. And as I've gotten older, I have developed a very sour taste towards socializing in general. The reason being that fakery and deception are a large part of normal social interaction. Just like you said in your initial post, I go through the motions and wear the appropriate faces in various social situations; I laugh when I'm supposed to laugh, I inquire when I am supposed to inquire, and I generally do all the "normal" things we as humans are supposed to do in social situations. But doing all of that makes me feel so fake and deceitful.
Rarely does my public persona match my internal feelings and emotions. Socializing for me is hard work; it's depleting and tiring to have to flip the social switch and partake in the social world. I often think that if people knew my true thoughts and feelings, nobody would like me or want to be my friend. So, therein lies the problem: how do I become "ok" with being phony and deceitful? Truthfully, I want to be liked, I want to have more friends, and I do crave a vibrant social life. But I detest the paths that I have to take to get those things. I've always hated phony people. Two-faced, superficial, deceitful people have always bothered me. But then I realize I am just as two-faced and phony in social situations as are the people that I detest.
This is something that keeps me awake at night. If I weren't such a sensitive, introspective, and caring individual, I probably wouldn't think twice about all this stuff. But I've always been a sensitive guy. I've always noticed things in situations that other less aware people miss. I notice the subtle changes in behavior when people are around different people or in different social situations. I've always viewed those changes as mini performances designed to accomplish some hidden agenda or goal. But then I notice the same things in myself -- and I hate myself for it! Uggggh! This is a big problem for me. At 37, I'm still trying to make up for all the life I missed out on when I was in the depths of my social anxiety struggle. To make a long story shorter, I basically put my life on hold for 15 or so years. So, naturally, I have a lot of work to do, and improving my social life is high on my list of must-dos. But it's hard for me to do it when I feel like such a phony. Sorry this was so long.
Anthony, this was beautifully put. I was very different in that I wasn't shy or an introvert (I was born singing, "Ta dum!") and when going through the motions I always seem to miss something and do the wrong thing. I can't keep my true self completely contained, ever. Thankfully, I'm an extrovert and not afraid to laugh at myself (survival skill) so I can turn it into a jolly, cool moment.
The rest of your post fairly describes my earlier experiences. I was a little taken aback. I'm older now, 53, but at 36, I was just starting to settle into being a real adult. I was more comfortable in the world, more in charge. Things actually got fun. The divorce wasn't fun but it was the shedding of a negative control entity - an abusive one at that - my divorce was a good thing (except that none of it should have ever happened.)
I went back to school. It was really hard, but not really. I got to do what I enjoy most - learn and get recognition for how smart I was. What was hard was my adjusting to life at planet college - with 4 kids in my care and no help, only grief from their father.. But we were happy anyways and got through it. As yet, I only have my AS (it took 7 years) but just going to school and making that accomplishment opened up so many doors.
It's important to remember that we go through phases from the day we're born. It's all written down, in multiple sources. Google your age group or the next and give yourself a head's up. Me, I'm empty nesting. Next, I'll be facing retirement and all that getting old crap. You might want to check out mid-life crisis because that can be a real bummer - some men blow it more at 45 than they did at 17. And if you live in a world with women, you might want to look into menopause and post-menopause - for self preservation.
Thanks, I enjoyed reading your post.
Thank you for the kind words. I enjoyed reading your story. I like what you said about life being made up of phases. That is so true. Unfortunately for me, it seems like I've been stuck in one phase for way too long. I have a hard time living in the moment, living for today. In my mind, my past experiences (or lack thereof) were so hurtful to me, that I can't seem to understand that today is a new day. It's like I view my day-to-day life through a lens clouded by past experiences, bad memories, past conditioning, etc. Reading your story, it's obvious that you've experienced a lot more than me, even by the time that you were my age now. And even though a lot of your experiences were negative, I'm sure the many experiences that you had helped you. I have a hard time not feeling inferior to people. As I inch closer to middle age, I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I feel like I should be settled down, with a whole host of experiences, loves, romances, and life experience under my belt. Instead, I'm a 37-year-old guy who feels like he's been in a cave for the past 15 or so years. I never experienced the normal, healthy adolescent/teenage/young adult things that people are supposed to experience. I can't seem to get over that. Like I'm always going to be behind in life. I'm not sure who I feel more awkard or threatened by, people my age who expect me to be on their experience level, or younger people who look at me as an older guy who is supposed to be more experienced and knowledgable. This is a very odd life that I have!
12 Feb 2012, 12:58 am
the_curmudge wrote:
I don't think the persona should be viewed as a lifetime commitment. There is a time when you have to conform to build up social credit and goodwill, to get the job or a significant other, but once you have demonstrated that you can do this, you should be able to let more of your real self show through. Hopefully there will come a time when you realize some situations require you to be totally fake, some totally real, and most somewhere in between. Moving in and out from behind the persona can be quite entertaining and amusing if you can come to view it less seriously.
I like this. It makes perfect sense to me. I mean, I do this all the time, but I still feel tortured inside because I Know that I'm compromising my true feelings and thoughts by adopting a fake but necessary social persona. This has been a huge problem for me for the past several years. I don't recall even thinking about all this stuff ten or so years ago. It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud. I think a lot of this comes from my strong sense of right and wrong. I've always been a true-blue, follow-the-straight-and-narrow kind of guy, both in my actions and in life. So, naturally, doing anything fake bothers me. Whether it's meeting someone new, trying to flirt with a girl, going out with friends, or making small talk with the cashier -- almost everything social seems fake to me. I analyze all these social situations and my corresponding behaviors to the point where I think I could actually lose my mind and go insane over all this. I guess, in my mind, the only time that I'm ever "real" or "authentic" is when I am all alone.
12 Feb 2012, 1:27 am
anthonyj37 wrote:
I still feel tortured inside because I Know that I'm compromising my true feelings and thoughts by adopting a fake but necessary social persona.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
"fake but necessary"
This is probably the part I have the most disagreement with. What is it that makes you think of it as necessary? Perhaps it's not upsetting that you are being fake, because otherwise you would choose not to do it at all, but that you feel it is necessary against your will. Is it really as necessary as you say it is?
12 Feb 2012, 1:16 pm
NicoleG wrote:
anthonyj37 wrote:
I still feel tortured inside because I Know that I'm compromising my true feelings and thoughts by adopting a fake but necessary social persona.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
"fake but necessary"
This is probably the part I have the most disagreement with. What is it that makes you think of it as necessary? Perhaps it's not upsetting that you are being fake, because otherwise you would choose not to do it at all, but that you feel it is necessary against your will. Is it really as necessary as you say it is?
Well, it's necessary if you want to co-exist with people and have relationships. If I wanted to be a hermit living out in the woods somewhere, then I could just be "me" and not worry about any of this. Social interaction in general requires that we "act" in certain ways, both as a matter of courtesy and as a way to maintain social harmony. If I didn't have a desire to be liked and to have friends, then I would say, "the heck with it all" and just be who I am at all times. But I can't seem to do that. Right or wrong, I conform to social norms and spend a large part of my day acting in ways that I don't feel. I hate the fact that it's "fake but necessary." So, I think you are right: it is upsetting to me because I feel it's necessary but against my will.
12 Feb 2012, 2:21 pm
"Why fake it?"
Could be a lot of threats to have me institutionalized when I was very young GOT through to me. Also, why paint a big red target on your back & write "bullybait" under it?
Which is what would happen. People were much less accepting of differences in the 60s & 70s (other than hippies & the arts community in general) than they are now.
If you wanted to have freedom, you best learn to conform. Well, a little. I never did really, but I learned "acting Normal" as a survival trait.
Sincerely,
Matthew
12 Feb 2012, 4:33 pm
anthonyj37 wrote:
NicoleG wrote:
anthonyj37 wrote:
I still feel tortured inside because I Know that I'm compromising my true feelings and thoughts by adopting a fake but necessary social persona.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
It's only after I really started to do a lot of soul searching and introspection that I realized how fake I was. Then I realized that it wasn't just me but society in general. And I don't know why I hate myself so much for it. If I could just be "ok" with faking all these social niceties and personas my life would be much easier to deal with. But I come away from most social interactions feeling like a fraud.
"fake but necessary"
This is probably the part I have the most disagreement with. What is it that makes you think of it as necessary? Perhaps it's not upsetting that you are being fake, because otherwise you would choose not to do it at all, but that you feel it is necessary against your will. Is it really as necessary as you say it is?
Well, it's necessary if you want to co-exist with people and have relationships. If I wanted to be a hermit living out in the woods somewhere, then I could just be "me" and not worry about any of this. Social interaction in general requires that we "act" in certain ways, both as a matter of courtesy and as a way to maintain social harmony. If I didn't have a desire to be liked and to have friends, then I would say, "the heck with it all" and just be who I am at all times. But I can't seem to do that. Right or wrong, I conform to social norms and spend a large part of my day acting in ways that I don't feel. I hate the fact that it's "fake but necessary." So, I think you are right: it is upsetting to me because I feel it's necessary but against my will.
I agree, for me it's very much an all-or-nothing-deal.
I do like people, not all of them or even most, but I do really like some people and I like to have freinds.
I've been doing the persona since middle school, I was bullied before that and I had some friends but was considered weird.
I don't do it to the extent that I did for many years, I stopped doing it completely for about a year because I just couldn't take it anymore, I'd gotten so far away from "myself" that I had no idea what I was anymore. I just felt like nothing, like an object, even. Totally depersonalized, but not depressed.
During that time, though, I lost contact with absolutely every friend I had and avoided family as much as possible, I could have easily lost my housing and ended up on the street, it scares me to think about the extent that I lost touch with reality. I was using no social skills whatsoever, I was just totally burned out and not at all capable of finding a job.
Talking about it actually scares the s**t out of me, luckily I am in Section 8 housing and my worker had some mercy on me, all is well now.
Anyway, I'm rambling but I'm just tying to say that for me personally, not putting on any kind of NT act took me down a frightening path and I can't say that the same would happen to all Aspies, but I have to admit that I am prone to living completely inside of my own mind and disconnecting with reality if I don't force myself to stay in tuned with the world and put on an act, to some extent.
Still, though, I don't do it the way I used to and I am MUCH less stressed out, finding a balance is key.
_________________
AD/HD BAP.
HDTV...
Whatever.
12 Feb 2012, 6:01 pm
When I was in the 2nd grade, I was hauled to the principal's office and forced to stand with my nose against "the Wall" because my behavior was deemed "unladylike" for lack of a better reason. I was publicly humiliated and didn't understand why.
Yes, faking becomes necessary, or else - unless you have the luxury of diagnosis and understanding support. I have a non-verbal grand-nephew. I'm so thankful his mother knows about autism and he'll never be punished for being his true self.
_________________
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain.
13 Feb 2012, 11:55 pm
I have days when I just can't put the persona on, no matter how hard I try. It is hard to leave the house on those days.
Today I introduced myself to yet another person who already knew me. The guy was asking me, "don't you remember me from...(blah blah blah)?" and instead of smiling and saying "oh yeah..." and smoothing it over for him, I just told him point blank, sort of mechanically, "No I don't remember you" and walked away. Now I have this strange feeling of foreboding. I feel as if an angry horde of people might come after me with pitchforks.
