Page 3 of 3 [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Hazelwudi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 511

15 Nov 2006, 8:01 am

While the "extreme male brain" theory of Asperger's has a certain face validity, I cannot help but question it. The traits of those with Asperger's are quite varied, indeed... it's not just social difficulties combined with a nonnormatively high systemization score.

Yes, female aspies tend to have certain traits which are normally considered masculine in our culture. For example, they are typically not obsessed with their appearance, display good spatial relations skills, are logical thinkers, are interested in science, technology, and/or mathematics, and tend to be forthright in their personal dealings. At the same though, they display some traits which are normally considered female in our culture, such as increased sensitivity of touch, taste, and smell, anger generally expressed through verbal means rather than physical, and a tendency to protect those weaker than themselves. In many ways, it's as if female aspies have brains which are mixed or androgynous in nature, rather than extremely male or extremely female.

Yes, male aspies have certain traits which are considered the extreme stereotype of the masculine, such as a complete inability to read social cues, a tendency to see people as things, self-obsessed behaviors, and aggression for little/no reason. At the same time, I cannot help but notice that many of them display traits which are normally considered very feminine, such as a tendency to wallow in self-pity, whining too much, lack of self-esteem, relying on the opinions of others to determine their self-worth, and so on. It's as if male aspies don't have "stereotypically male" brains, nor do they have brains which are androgynous in nature. Rather, when one looks at them in their totality, they are more a mix of the extreme traits associated with each gender.



PrisonerSix
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 689
Location: The Village

16 Nov 2006, 10:48 pm

KimJ wrote:
Quote:
AS is basically a social disability, and males have way more social problems then AS females. The reason AS is diagnosed more in males is because they have a much higher rate of serious issues. They do not adapt as well as AS females.

Females do a large majority of the choosing in mate selection, they just have to wait for NT males to hit on them. By simply beign female they get socialized more then an AS male would who has no interest in socialization. This leaves AS males with huge problems, since they usually are more timid, asocial and clueless then their NT male counterparts.

AS males and females most likely draw teasing from classmates and bullying, but I'd venture to say that males get picked on viciously more often then the female. I rarely if ever in my highschool career ever saw a female get publically picked on in class in front of the teacher.


I completely disagree. It's more socially acceptable for men to be solitary, women cannot. Women are conditioned to do everything in packs and consider women who do things alone to be; weird, slu*ty, or super courageous.
I don't think gender has any role in socializing (one over the other). If you're autistic, you will have equal trouble. Autistic women get picked on just as much for being not feminine enough, being alone, not liking boys, liking boys too much, not wearing the right thing. Boys can wear boy clothes and be okay.
Autistic boys and girls can be timid or can be clueless of boundaries, which make them look agressive, extroverted, too comfortable with people they don't know.
Men who don't make eye contact are considered untrustworthy, women who don't make eye contact are considered sad, depressive, have low self-esteem, antisocial. Women are groomed for body language and when they can't comply, they are taken to task for it, more than men. We have been expected to control bodily functions more than men. We are expected to modulate voices, walking, smiling. you name it.

The symptoms may manifest differently, but I believe they are essentially the same and are equally damaging.

I do agree that in the public school system and therapies the outward, "aggressive" behaviors are more the focus. Deficiencies, quiet misunderstandings are overlooked.


When I was growing up, I actually had a general dislike for females that lasted all through high school. I wasn't interested in getting involved with girls and that disinterest lasted all through high school. I was often mistreated because of this, which I didn't understand. One would think one less guy competing for the females would be an advantage to the other guys so why pressure him to join in? I wonder if other aspie males have this general dislike of females during adolescence.

There were some girls I'd lash out at when they'd continue to bother me after I made it clear I wasn't interested. It almost seemed like the meaner I was to them the more they'd come back. I even called them all sorts of disgusting names I can't repeat here, but they wouldn't leave me alone.

I was often ridiculed for my refusal to take part in these activities, among other school activities such as sports, clubs, etc. I never saw another girl get tormented, it was always males.


_________________
PrisonerSix

"I am not a number, I am a free man!"


KimJ
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,418
Location: Arizona

16 Nov 2006, 11:00 pm

Hazelwudi, I agree with your comments and have felt that way for a while. Despite my sometimes androgynous interests and dress, I've never been a tomboy. My son has the same tendencies. He dresses up as princesses and has fantastic inflection in his speech. He might be gay but it's way too early to know. He used to talk about his "husbands" (male friends at school) and then started repeating that "boys don't marry boys". So, I'm sure someone "corrected" him at some point. wasn't me.
But he certainly doesn't think of himself as a girl or otherwise act effeminate. It's definitely, extremes of both genders. My husband is only like that emotionally. He's emotionally like a woman, but manly in other ways.



OddDuckNash99
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,562

16 Nov 2006, 11:26 pm

I agree that Aspie girls are underdiagnosed because they don't show the same symptoms and are less likely to be disruptive in school. However, I do believe that autism is predominantly a male disorder. I strongly support the "testosterone theory," which states that an abundance of testosterone in utero changes the brain circuitry and allows for certain disorders. Autism, learning disorders, and left-handedness are all examples and are all more common in males. It also explains why Aspie girls tend to be more masculine in their interests and why many autistics are left-handed. I wholeheartedly agree with the testosterone theory because of my own development. My mother took very good care of herself during pregnancy, but something went wrong with me. There is absolutely no autism/Asperger's in my family and there's only two left-handed people in my family (two of my mom's cousins and they aren't siblings). So why is it that I'm a left-handed Aspie girl?
-OddDuckNash99-


_________________
Helinger: Now, what do you see, John?
Nash: Recognition...
Helinger: Well, try seeing accomplishment!
Nash: Is there a difference?


KBABZ
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,012
Location: Middle Earth. Er, I mean Wellywood. Wait, Wellington.

17 Nov 2006, 12:06 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
...many autistics are left-handed.


That's ironic, because both my parents are left-handed, as am I, so it could be that they are on the spectrum, if ever so subtly, whereas my sister isn't on the spectrum and she's right-handed! It proves nothing, but it's an interesting fact nonetheless, eh?


_________________
I was sad when I found that she left
But then I found
That I could speak to her,
In a way
And sadness turned to comfort
We all go there


rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,096
Location: Sweden

17 Nov 2006, 1:00 am

OddDuckNash99 wrote:
I agree that Aspie girls are underdiagnosed because they don't show the same symptoms and are less likely to be disruptive in school. However, I do believe that autism is predominantly a male disorder. I strongly support the "testosterone theory," which states that an abundance of testosterone in utero changes the brain circuitry and allows for certain disorders. Autism, learning disorders, and left-handedness are all examples and are all more common in males. It also explains why Aspie girls tend to be more masculine in their interests and why many autistics are left-handed. I wholeheartedly agree with the testosterone theory because of my own development. My mother took very good care of herself during pregnancy, but something went wrong with me. There is absolutely no autism/Asperger's in my family and there's only two left-handed people in my family (two of my mom's cousins and they aren't siblings). So why is it that I'm a left-handed Aspie girl?
-OddDuckNash99-


1. Lefthandedness is absolutely not related to testosterone. I read a study that claimed it have a genetic basis + some random effect.

2. Even if Aspie girls might feel more masculine, the reverse is true for males, IOW, they feel more feminine to the same degree that girls feel more masculine.

3. There is no evolutionary sense in testosterone levels in utero generating various disabilities. If such an affect existed, individuals with such predisposition would quickly be selected out of the genome.

4. Levels of autism are so high that the genes cannot persist in our genome unless they confer some advantage.



Sophist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,332
Location: Louisville, KY

17 Nov 2006, 2:39 am

rdos wrote:
3. There is no evolutionary sense in testosterone levels in utero generating various disabilities. If such an affect existed, individuals with such predisposition would quickly be selected out of the genome.


Why would testosterone-generated conditions be selected any faster or any more than any other condition? I don't see how this would put it at greater risk than any other condition simply because it is hormonally-related. Hormonally-related doesn't mean is disrupts the ability to procreate. There are separate stages of sexual differentiation of the foetus and disrupting one does not cause a domino effect. Also not all sexual differentiation genes are located on the 23rd pair either.


_________________
My Science blog, Science Over a Cuppa - http://insolemexumbra.wordpress.com/

My partner's autism science blog, Cortical Chauvinism - http://corticalchauvinism.wordpress.com/