If you want to act and think less autistic...

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shyengineer wrote:

"I feel happier now than ever before. I'm going on the benefit and taking the time to find out how I can earn money in a way that suits me without the stress of anything. I'm concentrating on the things I'm good at and make me happy so I'm less depressed and much less anxious."

I'm glad you are finding a way to live that makes you feel happy, and I hope everyone does that, but you seem to be implying that doing this is not a part of surviving. You also seem to be implying at the end of your message that all people who live their lives forcing themselves to conform to the establishment are NT's and that those who are living more creatively are not.. To me that is very black and white thinking.

Overgeneralization.

There are meek aspies, and there are assertive aspies. There is no general tendency for aspies to be less assertive. However, we are often less effective when we assert ourselves, due to poor social skills.

In my case, I'm too assertive, to the point of being aggressive. I'm so afraid of being taken advantage of that I end up hurting others out of fear. I'm working on being less assertive, actually, on learning to let go when it's really not that important to me.

I am not sure, but you are possibly implying that playing a social role could also be based on understanding. If so, I agree. For instance a person could have so much more understanding than another person that he is able to see through his motivations and responses, like an adult interacting with a preschooler, for example, but you're not going to let the child know that you see everything you see, but out of love will pretend to be more on his level. That kind of role playing is can be a joyful and easy part of interaction. It does require a little more attention and effort than engaging with someone on your own level, but the payback that compensates for this kind of effort is knowing you are making the other person happy, so making yourself happy.

Thanks for sharing this...

Well in some way I think I'm right, because the reason why you've become too assertive (to the point of being aggressive) is likely that you've not been assertive enough previously - which resulted in people taking advantage of you. It seems like many aspies "start out" being meek, until they achieve a greater understanding of social dynamics (understand that people take advantage of their meek nature).

I don't know you so cannot tell if that's the case, but I know it went that way for me. Add to that the black and white thinking, assertive, neither meek nor aggressive behaviour becomes difficult.

I love your message, probably because I am very interested in language, symbolism and (inner) code. Makes me think of this one kind of bird that only sings a certain time of year, in the spring. Its song is so melodic---utterly pure and exquisite. Have not heard it yet this year, but when I was marketing the other day did chance upon a pitch black crow hopping around in the gutter being amazingly and intricately verbal:-) It was so unique I stopped to listen, though sadly no one else passing by did. Interestingly this crow was talking to a pigeon, or actually he probably was not, as I think there was another crow across the street, and he soon flew over there, but the pigeon who was standing next to him responded by making some kind of sound (and it was a sound I never before heard coming from a pigeon:-)

What I am thinking regarding the bird that makes the plaintive beautiful call in the spring is that everyone who hears it will feel the same, including cats, dogs and other birds and animals.. The inner nuance of that call is transformational.

You have some great points. In fact, living a lifestyle that suits you is also merely a survival-technique. So I agree you are doing the right thing. What I'm saying is the wrong thing is becoming depressed and giving up on life - and living in one's own autistic world forgetting about one's own life. That's letting oneself down. That will happen if one doesn't care enough about one's life. It's obvious you do care..what's important is that one makes a choice about one's life.

Last edited by qawer on 19 Mar 2013, 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

That's pretty much the size and shape of the thing. Sacrifice everything to survive, or be made a sacrifice.

And nobody gets why I'm bitter and hateful...

In fact, the more you want to survive the more you have to sacrifice unconditional romantic love.

Being very conditional about your partner in romantic love is a 'healthy' sign in the sense that you value your survival over romantic desire. It becomes romance vs. survival. Unless you consider the desire to survive "romance".

It's the harsh reality of the natural selection we are all a part of.




I do.

The only way to work around it is really to attempt to cherish survival (life really) and everything it brings about. That includes the natural selection. Bullying, social exclusion etc. are also part of the natural selection. It's difficult (fortunately) to "cherish" these things.

I think it can be tough to accept that life rewards the cold heart, not the warm.

I'm not making excuses. You may have acknowledged that this was the case with yourself, and I am not in denial, but it isn't with me. I only knew I had AS 5-6 years ago, so I didn't spend my life thinking "oh well, I have AS and because I've tried to fit in and can't, it's everybody else's fault."

I have had people actually say about me, that I soldier on despite a lot of adversity, I am not the type to give up. But I will not sell myself out any more.

I have asked for help for years from the mental health system, all I got was a variety medication (which I didn't ask for, it was pushed on me) and a minimal amount of counselling which didn't help. One therapist I saw at the age of 17, didn't quite know how to help me, so she asked me to write a sheet of paper about how I felt. I did as she asked and gave it to her. She responded by saying that it was beyond her ability to help me. (Well, of course I didn't know I had AS then, and clearly ordinary NT therapies largely don't work for Aspies). I attempted to get diagnosed over 3 years ago, and despite listing a load of separate labels for all my traits (which together added up to AS) they failed to diagnose me, the NHS are the people who are supposed to help. And do you know why they failed? it was because my NT mask was so convincing (and I was so used to wearing it that it didn't occur to me that I had to be my true self) that they couldn't believe I had AS. I finally got a private diagnosis a few months ago, which fortunately was free otherwise I could probably not have afforded it.

I'm pleased for you that you have had help, I sought help and didn't get it. Before I knew I had AS, I spent my life wondering why I didn't fit in despite trying so hard, I people-watched and did what I thought I was expected to do, to be like others. I tried to live up to the expectations of friendships and relationships and couldn't (and when I tried it caused immense stress). I am on medication now for anxiety caused by having AS and trying to live in an NT world.

What more do you suggest I do. Even the nicer NTs I have come across, don't understand what I'm saying, or they appear to but then things happen which proved they didn't understand what I wanted or needed or was trying to do. Results of things speak for themselves.

I don't fit, I can't make myself fit. I can't change how I feel inside no matter how hard I work to be like others. I've exhausted myself and cannot and will not do it any more.

So forgive me if I'm not having an epiphany based on younger members' idealistic and evangelical spoutings...I've lived it and I know better I'm afraid.

What do you understand "natural selection" to be?

I agree with the poster on the first page saying this an autistic obsession where you're viewing the world through the paradigm of a single philosophy you've become attached to. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is what it is. I've done it for a while in the recent past with a different philosophy of my own, and while it was fun & interesting to slot everything into it for a while, it's not the only philosophy in the world that has merit.

As for your thoughts on everything being about survival, ok sure - to the extent of survival - but what about once you've covered all of your needs & you're able to survive? What about wants? What about living & thriving vs. merely surviving? The NT world is, typically, a lot more self serving than merely ensuring they can survive day to day. Homeless people with zero material possessions or monetary wealth can figure out how to survive, and they do, but people who are capable of & want to live a better social and quality of life existence have to strive to achieve greater things than mere survival. Well, quality of life in terms of material things, travel, education, experiences that cost money etc - as I'm sure one could live a wonderful quality of life as a penniless Monk if it was their desire not to desire anything. But in the NT world, people aim to thrive, not just survive. IMO.

The purpose of life is for it to keep existing - because if all life dies, all purpose with life is lost. If there were no more humans, there would be no more purpose with human life. If you die, there will be no more purpose with your life, because you don't live. Hence, there can be no other purpose of human life but for it to exist.

To maximize probability of continual existence of human life, a natural selection has to happen: the genes of the most fit are passed on to the next generation, while those the least fit are not. This gives the best odds for continual existence of human life - life serves its own purpose.

Wait, life has a purpose? I've never seen evolution or life having any particular telos.

Actually, we agree Verdandi...existence is really no purpose. It's just existence...only using that terminology to explain myself

Then survival just goes to another level. Now it's about achieving even greater probability of survival. All these famous, rich hollywood actors are also fighting for their survival in their billion-dollar houses...it's just taken to another level.




Wants stem from motivation which stem from the desire to survive.




It's only a matter of how well you're doing in the natural selection (which is based on survival). If you're "merely surviving" you aren't doing too well. If you're "living & thriving" you're doing very well. That's why you want to live & thrive rather than merely survive. It's giving you better survival probabilities, which you desire because it serves the purpose of your life which is to keep existing.




It's because the NT-world is "generally" doing rather well in the natural selection.




It wouldn't be a wonderful quality of life when he began to starve. One cannot escape survival needs. But a Monk likely has a brain which is rewarded from that life style...he does it because that's what he desires. Desires stem from motivation which stem from the desire to survive. Was the choice between dying or not living as a munk, he would pick the last option. Survival is more important to him than his desire to be a monk. It's because his desire to be a munk actually stems from his desire to survive.




I agree. They don't want to do just OK in the natural selection, they want to do splendid.



I understand why you think the way you do. From my perspective it's a sign that you are motivated to survive. It's healthy. Making life to be more than survival/existence is probably the strongest, most powerful survival strategie to date. At the same time, that's why you despise my opinion In some sense, it's extremely difficult to accept the opinion I'm stating, because we think our lives become rather meaningless if they are only about survival - we lose motivation.