Brain representations of social thoughts predict autism

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07 Dec 2014, 4:55 pm

here are the links for the original sources of both articles, if you want to look for the methods:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0113879

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/134/8/2422



B19
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07 Dec 2014, 5:55 pm

That point is considerably blunted by the sample size and assumptions made in the conclusion as well as in the design of this experiment.



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07 Dec 2014, 6:22 pm

B19 wrote:
That point is considerably blunted by the sample size and assumptions made in the conclusion as well as in the design of this experiment.


It can still be an interesting study, even if we can't make confident statements as a result of the findings.

And it could lead to further findings as others try to replicate or disconfirm. I, personally, wish more researchers would spend time trying to find valid ways of distinguishing both between NTs and people on the spectrum, and between what I believe are different subtypes on the spectrum. Research of that type--IMHO--would prove much more useful than research related to "causes" and "cures."


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07 Dec 2014, 6:29 pm

Each research study has flaws that the researchers themselves recognize.
Often, the media blows up research studies into big claims that the researchers aren't making and wouldn't make.
Most researchers I know will go so far as to say what is new, interesting, and important about a study, and what understanding or applications it could lead to.
Most research in cognitive neuroscience related to autism is about finding clear differences between autistic people and neurotypical people and identifying subgroups of autism.


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07 Dec 2014, 6:33 pm

I agree, InThisTogether: the distinction of subtypes is a really important issue, and Just doesn't seem to say anything about it.

Suppose that this is the case: some ASD people rely principally on visual-spatial strengths, while the clinically defined Asperger subgroup, tend to have maximised language-based strengths. Some have speech delay, and some have lower or higher vascularisation in the brain (which affects MRI results).

So just rounding up 17 high functioning people doesn't do what the researchers claim it does. This seems straightforward to me, though obviously there are people who consider this viewpoint irrelevant.



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07 Dec 2014, 6:44 pm

What is interesting to me is not the 17 people representing the autistic population, but machine learning to analyze fmri data and distinguish between two groups with high accuracy, even in small sample, as one must start somewhere. As I said earlier, this is not common in research on autism, as there is generally a lot of overlap between nt and asd groups on whatever is measured. Being able to develop tasks that do find clear differences in small sample is important before eggstending to larger samples. Even if small sample is not representative of large sample, it could be a subgroup of autism spectrum. New data analysis techniques for large, complex datasets like EEG, fMRI, and eye-tracking are just as important for finding differences.


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07 Dec 2014, 6:51 pm

It seems to me that it would have been better for Just to refer to it as a pilot study then.



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07 Dec 2014, 7:03 pm

Calling it a study is fine, the term pilot study has a different meaning which is that the researchers are still testing the eggsperimental setup or code or trying to work out a data analysis chain that makes sense for the topic studied. It is much more preliminary than an ackshul study involving 30+ participants. All researchers know that published studies have flaws and limitations, and results of published studies are subject to further investigation and potential refutation, that is the nature of the scientific method.

Also, researchers doing brain imaging are aware of technical issues in brain imaging and do question brain imaging results, e.g. if certain types of artifacts contributed to the data and if the results are due to artifacts instead of the phenomena of interest. They also work on methods to address these issues, so sometimes, previous datasets will be re-analyzed using new and improved methods. Most researchers are pretty paranoid about these issues.


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Last edited by btbnnyr on 07 Dec 2014, 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Dec 2014, 7:13 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
Calling it a study is fine, the term pilot study has a different meaning which is that the researchers are still testing the eggsperimental setup or code or trying to work out a data analysis chain that makes sense for the topic studied. It is much more preliminary than an ackshul study involving 30+ participants. All researchers know that published studies have flaws and limitations, and results of published studies are subject to further investigation and potential refutation, that is the nature of the scientific method.


I am happy you are here. You are able to put into clear words the things that I find difficult to explain.


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07 Dec 2014, 7:22 pm

B19 wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
in the Science Daily piece, they say autistic children have trouble "correctly using pronouns, sometimes referring to themselves as 'you' instead of 'I.'"

Is this more true of autistic children than typical children? Is it equally true of Aspergers and HFA children?

I did not have this problem as a child. My son did not have this problem as a child.



I've never seen nor heard of it.


I in fact have heard of this trait before, but I don't know of anyone specific who this applies to.


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07 Dec 2014, 7:24 pm

failure posting


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Last edited by Eloa on 07 Dec 2014, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Dec 2014, 7:26 pm

failure posting


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Last edited by Eloa on 07 Dec 2014, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Dec 2014, 7:30 pm

B19 wrote:
I agree, InThisTogether: the distinction of subtypes is a really important issue, and Just doesn't seem to say anything about it.

Suppose that this is the case: some ASD people rely principally on visual-spatial strengths, while the clinically defined Asperger subgroup, tend to have maximised language-based strengths. Some have speech delay, and some have lower or higher vascularisation in the brain (which affects MRI results).

So just rounding up 17 high functioning people doesn't do what the researchers claim it does. This seems straightforward to me, though obviously there are people who consider this viewpoint irrelevant.


I don't know if I really understand your point, but as I understand your point it shows, that even if an autistic person is primarily visual thinking or if an autistic person is primarily verbal thinking it comes down to the same result that an autistic person is more an observer than participating in the world.

This I wrote in a thread on 30th of november this year:
Eloa wrote:
Temple Grandin writes in "Thinking in Pictures":
Quote:
:
In my high school diary I wrote: "One should not always be a watcher - the cold impersonal observer - but instead should participate." Even today, my thinking is from the vantage point of an observer, I did not realize that this was different until two years ago, when I took a test in which a piece of classical music evoked vivid images in my imagination. My images were similar to other people's, but I always imagined them as an observer. Most people see themselves participating in their images."



I relate to this.
Last week I joined a week of group therapy were guided imagery was used.
There were people who do not see images, but feel instead.
There are people who see images and feel.
I did see images as I am visually thinking, I see them into tiniest detail, but when asked "what did you feel" I communicated that I simply observed.


I don't know how to finish writing this post, brain is empty, am not good at debate, I don't know if this is a debate, but my brain is verbally empty.


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Last edited by Eloa on 07 Dec 2014, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Dec 2014, 7:46 pm

It's ok for there to be a range of views on this topic, as nothing about this field of research re autism is yet written in stone. It's too soon to make definitive conclusions. I think there may have been a rather hasty readiness to ignore the confounding issues, assume that they must have been controlled for (?evidence) and/or a tendency to brush them off as unimportant or irrelevant.

My perspective is a cautionary one.

Here is one more commentator who also expresses some doubt:
http://crackingtheenigma.blogspot.co.nz ... -five.html

Doubt is good, at every stage of the experimental process particularly when evaluating new claims.



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07 Dec 2014, 8:13 pm

A single fMRI test to diagnose autism is a bad idea.
It is better to use multiple behavioral tasks on a computer to supplement and inform current diagnostic procedures.


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13 Dec 2014, 12:04 am

97% accuracy claim in another context:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/sift ... er-matters