The NT Perspective

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I agree it was quite short sighted of him. However in defence Asperger's is often referred to as a behaviour disorder. Sometimes this can cause confusion. My main problems at the moment are cognitive. If anyone has a problem with my behaviour they can take it up with me

Also there are a small group of so called expert that are very virulent against the condition in general. Such as the criminalization of Asperger's.

Personally I get just as a annoyed that with those that are super paranoid and often quite fascist toward any effort to help us as I do with the ‘curbies’.

The term Asperger's is actually pretty arbitrary and historical, so I will drop it any time anyone tries to pigeon hole. The nature of ASD is much more multidimensional that diagnostic requirement often listed for Asperger's. I do use Asperger's in general conversation and I get called it but the guy that diagnosed me, but in the formal letter it said Autism Spectrum Disorder. I think some people do get fixated on a set idea of Asperger's just as they do on this whole nonsense of NT. I use NT to describe a typicalised or stereotypical behaviour rather than anything real.

I find this is very true. Sometimes if I am stressed I cannot make head nor tail of what people are saying to me, its like they are speaking in spanish. This - I keep having to reassure myself - is not a problem with my interlect, because if they wrote down what they wanted to say i would understand it instantly.

And yes, if someone seems to be reacting like this they probably need to take a nice walk somewhere.

I've spent the last hour or so worrying that I'm reinforcing the stereotype that people with aspergers don't have a sense of humour by saying don't use sarcasm. I guess someone else might be better at understanding things than me, just like I have *some* of what i think is empathy. So maybe some people would like it.

Dont say Nts. it is really annoying. it suggests that everybody else is this so called 'normal' thing again when there not. I hate it. Also dont treat us to different. that really bugs me

At least quote the whole passage.

Yes, I recently discovered that some people I do not know, who know nothing about me, have gone into the Aspergers' Business, 1994, and now claim to tell everyone what they could not know.

For one, the criteria is over broad. What we find here is no two alike. We are not a DX, but a normal range of humanity.

Your Professional Response is about what I expected. You moved to assert dominence and control.

We are humans, we suffer birth, life, death, and a few other things. Other than that we are as different as any group of humans.

You wish to pin a label on me, then put yourself in charge?

Psychology is not Medicine, nor is it Science, it is a Religion.

You are responding like any other True Believer.

I want nothing to do with your Cult.

You do not deal well with people who disagree with you.

You seem hostile and authoritarian, do you see yourself as the Aspergers' Parole Officer?

You ask for opinion, then reject anything that does not fit in your box.

You do not state your disagreement with what I said, but resort to name calling.

You can ignore what I say, respond to it with another opinion, but you have moved to personal ridicule.

Personal Attacks.

This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct of indirect.

Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comment is not.

That is part of the Terms Of Service on this site.

Do you think the common rules of human decency do not apply to you?

I ask again, what are your quaifications?

Inventor, it seems like you are putting all your past grievances against people on ichbinilya. She's not here to judge, but to learn.

I'm sorry Inventor, but I'm not seein' the name-calling. I see she characterized a segment of your post as hypocritical, but did not call you a hypocrite. I agree that there are many "professionals" that are as you describe, but I don't know if ichbinilya is one of them or not.

Hi, Ichbinilya! Welcome.

I am NT too, and came to this forum because my grandsons have been diagnosed with aspergers. I am lucky because I loved them as individuals before their diagnosis, and our family have learnt together. Their parents have been through the landmines of meltdowns, depression, violence and the boys, aged 8 and 9, are learning to get some control over thier lives.

The boys are very interested in how their brains function.

I love this forum. I have made some true friends here and plan to travel overseas in about 2 years to meet some of them. My daughter is meeting some of her WP friends in the next few weeks in London.

I believe that openness, acceptance and honesty are important in any social situation. That about sums up the advice that has been given to you.

I hope you are happy here. You have come to the right place to learn.

Robyn

And I to educate, but seem to be judged.

My main grievance is that anyone can come judge what has been normal and human for a long time before they started, and then label 2,000,000 people in the US.

The result of their actions is that some people are calling for genocide. There are perhaps 130,000 LFA, they are being used as an example of why none of us shoud be born.

The effect of the Dx was to label my family for generations back as defective. Getting by in the world just got harder for anyone who can now be discredited, Aspergers is the new schizophrenia, just as it was the old.

Now things have changed? The NT point of view is no longer lock people up and use electro shock on them? None of the drugs are used on Aspergers now, why?

Because the Supreme Court said you could not deprive people of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness without due process, no punishment with crime. People who were no threat to themselves or others were locked away for life without trial, or appeal.

That was surely the NT point of view, just as it is now to find a genetic marker so none will be born.

Am I hostile about people being deprived of their lives without cause? Yes, I am also against Gitmo and waterboarding for the same reason.

So finding that I was recently classed in a group of 2,000,000 selected for treatment, hence discredited, is insulting, and I am hostile to that idea, and to extirminating us all.

How sad, that you never heard about the recent track record of your Profession?

How sad, that you cannot understand that you are not loved or trusted?

How sad, you do not know of, or chose to ignore, the folks working for genocide?

Like it or not, this is a common view. Psychology has done a lot of damage to real people's lives in the past, and is helping with plans for a future without us.

So I am trying to make you understand better, many people see you as worse of a problem than Autism.

We older folks just grew up, we see the younger being drugged. Growing up is hard enough.

The first rule of Medicine is, Do No Harm.

You have not said anything to make me think that you have any knowledge. You seem unaware of history or current events. Are you on the board of, Mothers Against Annoying Aspies (MAAA) ? That was meant as a joke.

The fact that you are unaware of how many older people think, how we discuss things, and can only say people are being hostile, and how sad it is, shows you to be most likely some Freshman Psych Major. What you will learn in time is adults disagree.

Seeing other people's opinions as being hostile to you is a narrow view of life. I am hostile to the idea that 2,000,000 people can be classed and discredited. We were fuly mature adults, home, family, business owners, and normal people with a few quirks. Then we are in the book. If you had something to do with that, you can take it personal.

What I see is a surplus of Psych Majors looking to drum up some business. I do not like being the target demographic. You have not said if you are removing metals, Fungus, or running some other quack cure. You asked how to get along, and that is what people have been telling you.

Try being honest and plain spoken.

So for the third time, what are your qualifications?



Mr. Mark, true, I was reacting more to being called hostile, and. How sad. My original comment was directed at the Profession, DSM, not the poster. It is perhaps deserved that my post, that my box is not yours, would be seen as hypocritical, the box was a metaphor for a label. It seems the OP and myself have some common ground, we do not like others to define us.

The reaction to the box was the same as mine to the label. I felt I was generous, the box I assigned was large enough to fully grow into the person you are. My feeling about the label is it limits me to the preconceptions of others. Forever a child, is one of those preconceptions, and I have done some very good adult work in the last twenty years. Saying I am hostile for stating my opinion, and . How sad. Is how one shames a child into behaving.

Hmmm, I thought about this distinction...Ilya, you asked how Inventor knows what the NT POV is, and whether this POV is held by all NTs.

Here's something to think about: it could well be said that there IS indeed an NT POV on Aspergers. It's contained within the DSM IV.

This is 'the bible' as far as mental conditions and disorders is concerned. This is the first point of reference when someone who has any interest hears about Aspergers - it is THE authority. It is exactly what is quoted in all manner of publications and articles designed to 'educate' the NT world about AS. It is the source of much misunderstanding and disinformation about AS. Moreover, it turns healthy but different, sensitive and often very talented human beings into 'disordered' clinical specimens.

Given that there is so little real knowledge out there, the NT's DSM IV DOES represent an authoritative single POV - of exactly the type Inventor illustrates with the rather ignorant 30yo's pronouncements (perhaps based on a cursory reading of the DSM IV? In a freshman psych class would he have had time to do more than scan through the criteria? The criteria which represent the single, global NT authority on AS).

On balance, I don't feel that Inventor was being hypocritical. He may have been a little elliptical in that he may have had similar thoughts in mind to mine (as above) when he made his comment, but obviously I cannot speak for him. It may be salient that we Aspergians have been observing the NT world for a very long time and in great detail - we have to, for our survival. NTs, if they're at all interested, are only just becoming aware of a whole 'new' sub-culture in their midst. We may be slightly more qualified to make statements like Inventor's than NTs are about us.

The way you approached at least this element of Inventor's post could appear to be hostile too you know: it's rather strong to tell someone they're being hypocritical and it seems to me that you rather swiftly judged at least some of his considered post as sad. If I were him, I'd be looking for something akin to an apology.

I began with a good-faith question: given the fact that many discussions on this board deal with misunderstandings between NT's and Aspies -- I did not invent these terms, they are found in every thread -- I thought it might be useful, both for myself and for others, to begin a thread in which I would ask how people with Asperger's wish to be approached by NT's.

The prevailing answer seems to be "the same way you would approach anyone else" but with some caveats -- for example, avoiding sarcasm, being clear with emotions, etc. These are useful points that I would not have otherwise known, and I thank those posters who courteously answered my question.

Inventor's immediate lengthy reply was hostile and unwarranted. I don't know where he got he idea, which he keeps repeating, that I somehow represent the profession of Psychiatry, much less "all NT's." I am not the one who wrote the limited DSM definition. I never claimed to have any special qualifications or knowledge at all -- in fact, I am merely the tech support guy for this organization, and a temp at that.

The organization, by the way, does a lot of great work with helping families who have kids diagnosed with Asperger's find information, treatment options, finding connections, help with resources, tuition, grants, etc. It also helps teenagers with Asperger's with some difficult issues they face in school and college. It also helps them find jobs afterwards. All of this for free, and for very small salaries for everyone who works there. So the immediate and unwarranted characterization about "Asperger's Associations" is patently unfair.

Anyway, my good-faith question, which many responded kindly to, elicited a series of hostile reactions from one poster. While I was trying to elicit information, he BEGAN with a series of ad hominem attacks on myself and my "profession." It's a shame that a thread such as this is not wanted here. But you win, inventor. I'm deregistering and leaving, so you need no longer bother yourself to type another lengthy reply.

1. Say what you MEAN.
2. Don't use confusing idioms.
3. Don't assume intelligence level. I have been talked down to by sales people that don't know ANYTHING, and sometimes LEAVE simply because I know better. When someone keeps talking like that I may let it play out, tease them(at their expense), or just leave.
4. Avoid harsh/loud sounds.
5. Don't expect contact.
6. Don't use erratic lighting, and avoid flourescent and neon.
7. Don't crowd them.
8. Don't stress them out.
9. Don't assume that they will assume.
10. Don't expect eye contact.
11. Realize they may have special routines or diets.
12. Don't expect reciprocation.

Outside of that, just talk to AS people like you would NTs. Act like AS is a protected class. TECHNICALLY, under the ADA, it IS one!

If people told almost any other protected class things like what they say to many AS people, they would be hauled into court, sued, pay fines, serve time, and/or lose their jobs. Companies would lose assets like licenses and contracts. In fact, I HAVE seen such cases like the above listed for blacks, females, etc....

Here's something, do you think you do the same thing to all people that is out there, that they is a approach that works the same way as it would for another. How about treating that person as an individual, not all As people are the same, the answer is just as wide as any other thing...

Take that person as an individual because not all As people are the same... They is no easy answer because what work's for one doesn't work for another, what one find's hard another does not, the fact is treating it that way mean's the person has to defend itself, rather than having a none conflicting conversation, where it starts off with defending what a person can & can't do...

Start's to make you wonder if this is a reason behind As people not getting Nt's, if Nts can't get As people then how come we are the only one's said that we cannot understand other minds, I can understand just the fact I am not like that, like the saying goes it takes 2 to negotiate & it is pointless if only 1 is negotiating...

So asking advice from how to talk to an As person would be the same as most males asking 1 female how to talk to a female... What work's for one does not work for another...

sidenote on sarcasm: I use it quite often but always in a way that is purely funny. My family used to use it against me (growing up was tough--couldn't be happier to be an adult), so I never do that.

Sidenote on implying: that typically goes over my head too and I would think the majority really.... Seems much easier to say I like the outdoors then trying to imply that you might (for example).

As far as the different culture/tribe/whatever stuff--I don't get it. We all live in the same world together. Certain groups of people may see things differently and it is nice when you find someone with a common view, but perhaps it isn't as vs. nt. Perhaps things are way more divided and I would think even more so then even the top psychologists probably know at this present time. (yeah, my interest in psch speaking there).

Honestly though, I think you can just take away the main "themes" of what people are saying here cause there are no two people in this world--not even twins are that much alike.

Well said. We all offend, we just need to acknowledge when we do and apologize and restate.

I talk to everyone like they have a brain in their head and have had life experience I can learn from.

I don’t talk to my AS bf differently than anyone. I speak with respect. The difference now is I react differently to his individual self.

Don’t mess with smart people, you will only lose…

This is good - Although it would help us Aspies if we ourselves took time to think if people are joking, it is good advice to suggest to avoid making joking comments to an Aspie.

I for one believe in the old addage - 'There is many a true word spoken in jest'. I feel that the tought that was joked about comes from somewhere. This means I might over analyse what is joked about, or maybe not over analyse it. I feel if people want to say something , don't be indirect by joking.

I'm always saying 'what [did you say]?' After the the third time it gets a bit annoying.


Who does? The guy that is reacting the other person or both? Personally I wouldn't mind going for a walk, pacing helps me think better.


I wouldn't worry about it. I'm the same. It is a question of context. It is hard to believe that there isn't a little malice there when it is personal.

This is a report some school quack wrote when I was 10-11:



Sorry what's to understand?



Thanks

Things are different if you feel you can relate to the person.

Empathy is actually very selectively used. Those people tend use it when it suits them and make a fuss about it especially on what is an 'acceptable' display of empathy.

It's a delusion!!