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take this test. im not too sure it's indicative of aspergers

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marshall
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24 Jan 2009, 3:13 pm

Tantybi wrote:
marshall wrote:
Okay here's the true correct answer:

In the first frame Sally notices that mischievous smirk on Anne's face and suspects that Anne might try to move her ball when she leaves the room. When Sally returns she notices that the blanket over her basket has been disturbed compared to how it looked when she left the room. Anne must have been up to something! Therefore Sally will look for her ball in Anne's box. :P

Seriously though, if I was a kid and I was given this test I'd be so bored with the story I wouldn't be able to force myself to pay attention to what the characters might be thinking. I'd probably be wondering why Anne doesn't have a shadow in the first frame but in the second she's suddenly sitting and has a shadow. Or is that a shadow? Then when asked where Sally will look for the ball I'd just be like "duh, how should I know?".


And why doesn't Sally have a shadow at all?

Shouldn't the question be where will Sally look first? Since the question is "where will she look for the ball," both answers would be correct, because if you said the box, she'd look for the ball first in the basket, and then when it wasn't there (which we all know it's not there), she'd start with the next closest place to look for the ball, and in this case, the box. Everybody looks for stuff in many different places, but the two places that are most probable for them to look at some point is A, where they last had it, and B, where it actually is when they find it.

I also think this is confusing to kids because it's not that Aspie people would look first in the box because they didn't realize little Sally had no idea that the ball was moved. I think it's more that an Aspie person would be thinking that Sally needs to or should look in the box. I notice a lot of "This is how it should be" type mentality from myself and my nephew, and I see it on this forum a lot too.


Another thing I might think is that they both knew ahead of time what they were going to do and had planned the whole thing. I might not immediatly jump to the conclusion that Anne was playing a trick on Sally. In my mind other kids did lots of strange and nonsensical things that would never occur to me. Maybe moving the ball was just another strange social ritual that NT's do that I'm not aware of.



Spokane_Girl

24 Jan 2009, 3:41 pm

I have asked some NTs this and they say Basket because it's logical. They don't even see this picture because I am telling them the story and then I ask where will Sally look and they say "basket." Even aspies have gotten this right too when I ask them why the basket and they say, "it's logical."


We learn to use our logic to figure people out so that helps us in life. Think of ourselves and assume the same with others but the bad part is not knowing how they will react because everyone react differently to different things so we are not going to know they will react different and we might have troubles understanding why they are so upset by X or embarrassed. That's something I have to live with everyday. People are full of surprises and I have to be paranoid. I say lot of offensive things to my bf but luckily he doesn't get mad because he understands. I don't do it on purpose. I am just open and am not afraid of talking. I'm not shy around him.



Tantybi
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24 Jan 2009, 7:03 pm

AnnePande wrote:
And then the problem is, there could be different suggestions what Sally could feel about it. Even an NT could guess wrong.

It's also a question about whether you'd know Sally personally or not. Human beings are not machines that react or feel the same way if only a specific thing is done to them.
It could also depend on Sally's actual mood that day, or what else she had experienced that day.
Maybe she actually wouldn't mind because she would think, aw, the ball isn't very important just now anyway.
See, that would be Theory of Mind, if you took the different possibilities into consideration... or how...? (Maybe that would be a "thinking out of the box" thing, really?)

Even NTs can't predict a person's reactions all the time. And they ought definitely not to give us the impression that they can!
Like they shouldn't give us the impression that they are able to feel the exact same feeling as the person they empathize with. Or that they can put themselves in "others'" shoes without specifying which "others" - it's definitely not "every person" they mean; mere experience shows that!
Why not just admit that? It's a human thing.

And what they also forget to say is that it's possible to practice empathy, and that NTs can need that too. So it's not just a black-and-white issue of "having" or "lacking".


That wouldn't be the purpose of the test as I would see it with the better question of how Sally feels (almost put fields, funny huh). It would be to see which character jumps up in your mind that you relate to most and how. Like if the patient responded with, I feel sorry for Sally because that was mean for Anne to move her ball for no reason...well then we might have an Aspie on our hands. An NT might respond with something more like Sally is just surprised that the ball is gone. It wouldn't be about reading a fictional character as much as projecting how you would feel if this happened to you.



Tantybi
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24 Jan 2009, 7:05 pm

marshall wrote:
Tantybi wrote:
marshall wrote:
Okay here's the true correct answer:

In the first frame Sally notices that mischievous smirk on Anne's face and suspects that Anne might try to move her ball when she leaves the room. When Sally returns she notices that the blanket over her basket has been disturbed compared to how it looked when she left the room. Anne must have been up to something! Therefore Sally will look for her ball in Anne's box. :P

Seriously though, if I was a kid and I was given this test I'd be so bored with the story I wouldn't be able to force myself to pay attention to what the characters might be thinking. I'd probably be wondering why Anne doesn't have a shadow in the first frame but in the second she's suddenly sitting and has a shadow. Or is that a shadow? Then when asked where Sally will look for the ball I'd just be like "duh, how should I know?".


And why doesn't Sally have a shadow at all?

Shouldn't the question be where will Sally look first? Since the question is "where will she look for the ball," both answers would be correct, because if you said the box, she'd look for the ball first in the basket, and then when it wasn't there (which we all know it's not there), she'd start with the next closest place to look for the ball, and in this case, the box. Everybody looks for stuff in many different places, but the two places that are most probable for them to look at some point is A, where they last had it, and B, where it actually is when they find it.

I also think this is confusing to kids because it's not that Aspie people would look first in the box because they didn't realize little Sally had no idea that the ball was moved. I think it's more that an Aspie person would be thinking that Sally needs to or should look in the box. I notice a lot of "This is how it should be" type mentality from myself and my nephew, and I see it on this forum a lot too.


Another thing I might think is that they both knew ahead of time what they were going to do and had planned the whole thing. I might not immediatly jump to the conclusion that Anne was playing a trick on Sally. In my mind other kids did lots of strange and nonsensical things that would never occur to me. Maybe moving the ball was just another strange social ritual that NT's do that I'm not aware of.


And that would be a perfect aspie answer to the discussion because you see it as something that doesn't make sense. I'm sure the whole ritual makes perfect sense to an NT, and even if it doesn't, then it wouldn't matter to them as much.



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24 Jan 2009, 7:50 pm

marshall wrote:
Okay here's the true correct answer:

In the first frame Sally notices that mischievous smirk on Anne's face and suspects that Anne might try to move her ball when she leaves the room. When Sally returns she notices that the blanket over her basket has been disturbed compared to how it looked when she left the room. Anne must have been up to something! Therefore Sally will look for her ball in Anne's box. :P

Seriously though, if I was a kid and I was given this test I'd be so bored with the story I wouldn't be able to force myself to pay attention to what the characters might be thinking. I'd probably be wondering why Anne doesn't have a shadow in the first frame but in the second she's suddenly sitting and has a shadow. Or is that a shadow? Then when asked where Sally will look for the ball I'd just be like "duh, how should I know?".


I keep looking back at Anne, where is the smirk, she just looks like she is smiling. I have enough trouble with Emoticons, much less drawings of facial expressions.



marshall
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24 Jan 2009, 7:58 pm

Tantybi wrote:
marshall wrote:
Another thing I might think is that they both knew ahead of time what they were going to do and had planned the whole thing. I might not immediatly jump to the conclusion that Anne was playing a trick on Sally. In my mind other kids did lots of strange and nonsensical things that would never occur to me. Maybe moving the ball was just another strange social ritual that NT's do that I'm not aware of.


And that would be a perfect aspie answer to the discussion because you see it as something that doesn't make sense. I'm sure the whole ritual makes perfect sense to an NT, and even if it doesn't, then it wouldn't matter to them as much.


I wasn't really saying that the whole thing is a ritual, just that I might think of it as a mere skit for which I completely miss the point. To see the point of the story it requires one to actively imagine that these drawings are real people in a real situation. The story isn't realistic or vivid enough to really engage my imagination.

To the aspie child it may be impossible to imagine that this story involves real "minds" since it's so simple and lacks any relatable emotional content. I think aspies rely on realism and detail to relate to a situation involving "minds". Otherwise story appears like a meaningless choreographed act with no rhyme or reason. Also, why are they both looking straight out of the page at me at the beginning of the cartoon? That only seems to reinforce the choreographed nature of the whole thing.

I think that as I child I might have imagined many social games as meaningless choreographed activities similar to this example.



marshall
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24 Jan 2009, 8:13 pm

taintedangelboy wrote:
marshall wrote:
Okay here's the true correct answer:

In the first frame Sally notices that mischievous smirk on Anne's face and suspects that Anne might try to move her ball when she leaves the room. When Sally returns she notices that the blanket over her basket has been disturbed compared to how it looked when she left the room. Anne must have been up to something! Therefore Sally will look for her ball in Anne's box. :P

Seriously though, if I was a kid and I was given this test I'd be so bored with the story I wouldn't be able to force myself to pay attention to what the characters might be thinking. I'd probably be wondering why Anne doesn't have a shadow in the first frame but in the second she's suddenly sitting and has a shadow. Or is that a shadow? Then when asked where Sally will look for the ball I'd just be like "duh, how should I know?".


I keep looking back at Anne, where is the smirk, she just looks like she is smiling. I have enough trouble with Emoticons, much less drawings of facial expressions.

I was joking. I agree the drawing isn't realistic enough to tell much of anything other than she's smiling. I just made it up that it was a smirk. I was mocking how the people who make up these kinds of tests tend to think everyone who isn't an idiot will have the exact same interpretation of the story when in reality there's more than one valid interpretation. Aspies just tend to come up with the interpretations that NT's think are weird.

To be honest I rarely know the difference between a smirk and a normal smile in real life. Some people always look like they're smirking to me.



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24 Jan 2009, 8:19 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Memorize the answer. It's not that hard.


I know the correct answer, it's just that I can't see it. Every time it has been given to me verbally, see: 'to Sally, where is the ball/pencil?' I always see where it's put after the second character moves it, and that's my genuine answer at the time.

You're not supposed to put thought to it with minutes of logical deduction, it's supposed to be instant.

A better adult test is various empathy tests, the EQ test being one tied into this one.


Similar to what I did. I failed the test at age 30. It was because when the question arose "Where will Sally look for the ball?" I thought: The box. Because, that is where the ball was. I had forgotten the stuff that had happened a few frames ago.

I think this is indicative of how I think: I just dont care what is in other people's minds, really. And I am bad at maths.



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24 Jan 2009, 8:49 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
I think this is indicative of how I think: I just dont care what is in other people's minds, really.


Bingo.

That's the overall point. We don't care as much about the thoughts that other people have, rather, we see the question and apply ourselves to the character instantly, and we give our answer. We don't see, nor care about the perspective of Sally instantly. It's an automatic thing, and it's almost global to those with an ASD, compared to normal people, and also those with Down's Syndrome.

This is why they tend to now say we have a delay in empathy, as with intelligence, we can deduce/discern the feelings/thoughts of another, it's just not an instant thing like with "normal" people.



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24 Jan 2009, 9:07 pm

I think one of the reasons I failed the test also is because I was paying more attention to the marble than to the dolls. I had sort of assumed that the test was about the whereabouts of the marble.

And I want to add. When I write that I dont care about the thoughts of others, I am not saying that I dont care about people. I am just sort of saying that I have a limited capacity to guess the thoughts of others and instinctively I am more focused on details, that are in front of me momentarily.. that I dont remember to try and predict others thoughts.



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24 Jan 2009, 9:39 pm

I just took the test and failed---and I am 44 years old and teach the gifted. Had I thought about it longer, I hope that I would have seen through it, but I answered it rather quickly in the way that I think it is supposed to be taken.

My excuse---I had a therapy session today for some issues dealing with my Asperger's. Ok...ok, not a good excuse, I will blame it on dinner...wait a minute, I cooked dinner.

Honestly, I am using my unusual humor to cover up for the fact that I failed the test.

By the way, someone earlier posted our typical abbreviations like AS and ASD. But they also used AC. What does AC stand for?



TheMaverick
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24 Jan 2009, 9:49 pm

usually means air conditioning



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24 Jan 2009, 10:04 pm

Failing the test represents adherence to rules and/or routines and/or rigid thinking? Eh? Maybe failing is indicative of lack of empathy for Sally? Does someone failing the test make Sally look foolish with their answer? The test taker has to decide where to look for the ball, in Sally's place, not just guess where Sally looks. You either become Sally, and interact with the story, adding in what you've seen in the comic strip, and moving the action along, or you act like Sally is separate from you, and you can't help her find the ball even if you know where it is. Sally would probably look in the basket, right? But if you were Sally's friend then you would say she knew to look in the box, and you would help her not appear duped. It took me about a week to understand this test, I would have never guessed "right" as a kid. I don't think it's just a coincidence that the ball is moved to the physical right when put in the box either. The "right" answer is that the ball was moved right into the box.

Edit,

but the correct answer, so this isn't too confusing, is that Sally looks in the basket.

and when I said I would have never guessed "right" as a kid, I meant that I wouldn't have known to say the basket, either. I thought empathy was just making Sally right, instead of giving the realistic guess for Sally with what Sally knows.



marshall
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25 Jan 2009, 5:45 am

zen_mistress wrote:
I think one of the reasons I failed the test also is because I was paying more attention to the marble than to the dolls. I had sort of assumed that the test was about the whereabouts of the marble.

And I want to add. When I write that I dont care about the thoughts of others, I am not saying that I dont care about people. I am just sort of saying that I have a limited capacity to guess the thoughts of others and instinctively I am more focused on details, that are in front of me momentarily.. that I dont remember to try and predict others thoughts.

Would you also say that the ability to instinctively focus on thoughts rather than physical details is proportional to the level of interest in the characters? I don't think failing this test proves lack of theory of mind. It only proves a lack of engagement with the characters. I'd be willing to bet that if there was some kind of back story explaining how important the marble is to Sally the test would be easier to pass.



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25 Jan 2009, 8:31 am

marshall wrote:
zen_mistress wrote:
I think one of the reasons I failed the test also is because I was paying more attention to the marble than to the dolls. I had sort of assumed that the test was about the whereabouts of the marble.

And I want to add. When I write that I dont care about the thoughts of others, I am not saying that I dont care about people. I am just sort of saying that I have a limited capacity to guess the thoughts of others and instinctively I am more focused on details, that are in front of me momentarily.. that I dont remember to try and predict others thoughts.

Would you also say that the ability to instinctively focus on thoughts rather than physical details is proportional to the level of interest in the characters? I don't think failing this test proves lack of theory of mind. It only proves a lack of engagement with the characters. I'd be willing to bet that if there was some kind of back story explaining how important the marble is to Sally the test would be easier to pass.


I'd focus on the physical environment (the actual position of the ball) because that's what I'd deem important. I'd honestly find the ball itself much more fascinating than worrying about what other's think about the ball.

My focus/physical science style focus:
On the ball itself (physical environment)

"Normal" style focus:
On the motives of the characters Sally and Anne (social environment)


Like other's have said, it wouldn't occur to me to focus on Sally and Anne. I'd actually find them off-putting, particularly if the ball itself was visually and texturally appealing. I'd be captivated by the ball, probably to the exclusion of everything else.



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25 Jan 2009, 11:16 am

The first thing I thought was that I was suprised that the one who moved the ball, did that, because I thought she was a rag doll / toy the way she was sat there.

Then I thought the other one should look in the box because I knew it was in the box after reading that's where it is - but then I figured the other one wouldn't know that so, basket first then when she doesn't find it, maybe a quick check of the floor, then box...

How she would feel after realizing the other one moved the ball? = "wtf"?!

[then probably kick her friend! lol]

What I don't get is why the cover starts smooth and is smooth when she leaves it, then it is ruffled BEFORE the other one puts it in the basket - at which point the blanket would not have been moved yet?? Then after the one put's it in the basket it is smooth again. [probably get a different artist! lol]